What's up with boat prices?

[34Hatt]

they have a test of a new SR 36 sedan, 360k with gas...,

10K @ ft and you get GAS engine that is Madness .

 

[Genesis]

Yeah, I saw that write-up.... Eee gads, people BUY that crap?

Well, yes. They do. Shocks me, but they do.

 

[Passages]

Yeah, I saw that write-up.... Eee gads, people BUY that crap?Well, yes. They do. Shocks me, but they do.

If folks are paying $400k for a clorox bottle (with gas engines ) I would think these people:
1) Have an affinity for water
2) Have disposable bucks
3) Are reasonably smart to accumulate that many disposable bucks.
4) Lack boating experience

Therefore,
After getting burned on their Sea Ray, Carver or Meridian(Bayliner), would not these same folks learn from their experience and naturally want to aquire a higher quality boat for half the cost?

If so, then our well built classics - properly maintained and updated as appropriate should ALWAYS be in demand with pricing that reflects it..

What am I missing here?

 

[Genesis]

People like the Chlorox bottles?

 

[mstailey]

Karl,
Yep, the Clorox bottles are it man. Come to MI and you'll see a ton of them. They're cool don't you know and the guy that has the biggest one wins the pis%$ing contest. He's the same one that drinks to much, plays the music way to loud and squeals his tires on his exotic sports car every time he comes and goes...

And the sales guys tell him he has a quality boat. Worst part is the guy believes it.

What a load of c-r-a-p.

 

[captddis]

In the 70s I worked for a large new boat dealer. One of the brands was Silverton. I hated them and could not understand why anyone would buy them. Discussing this with a friend he said that many people would rather have A brand new Chevy with warranty than a used Mercedes. So they buy the biggest new boat they can afford. Personally I would rather have quality, but you also need to be able to keep the old boat going yourself. The non mechanically inclined need new.

 

[Timeless56]

Hal:

I purchased one of the boats on your list of the 48' and higher. I purchased the boat directly from the owner and it is listed three times by three different brokers on your list. Only one of them actually got the correct sale price! I really question the data from Yachtworld!

Mike
"The Good Stuff"
Catawba Island, Ohio
1987 52' Convertible

Karl
here are the larger Hats for the last month.
Hal


Length
Boats Year Listed US$ Sold US$ Location YachtWorld Member
58' Hatteras 58 ... 1977 239,000 (08/05) 210,000 (05/06) MD, USA Mears Point ...
58' Hatteras Yac... 1980 399,000 (09/04) 370,000 (05/06) FL, USA Gilman Yacht...
54' Hatteras Spo... 2005 1,699,000 (02/06) 1,699,000 (05/06) FL, USA The Marine G...
53' Hatteras 1979 450,000 (05/05) 410,000 (05/06) TX, USA Texas Sportf...
53' Hatteras 53MY 1974 229,500 (05/04) 150,000 (06/06) TX, USA Fox Yacht Sales
53' Hatteras Ext... 1984 374,500 (07/05) 362,000 (06/06) CT, USA Northeast Ya...
53' Hatteras Ext... 1983 399,000 (06/05) 320,000 (06/06) ON, Can Rocco Barca
53' Hatteras MY 1980 275,000 (05/05) 250,000 (06/06) CA, USA Sausalito Ya...
53' Hatteras Spo... 1975 229,000 (08/05) 229,000 (05/06) FL, USA Northrop and...
52' Hatteras 1987 399,000 (10/04) 399,000 (05/06) FL, USA MacGregor Ya...
52' Hatteras 1987 329,000 (07/05) 290,000 (05/06) FL, USA AAA Yacht Sales
52' Hatteras Coc... 1994 529,000 (07/05) 445,000 (05/06) FL, USA Upper Deck Y...
52' Hatteras Con... 1987 339,000 (11/05) 300,000 (05/06) FL, USA Yacht Masters
50' Hatteras Con... 1997 675,000 (05/05) 600,000 (05/06) LA, USA Gulf Coast H...
48' Hatteras 48 ... 1981 279,000 (11/05) 239,000 (06/06) MD, USA Jarrett Bay ...
48' Hatteras Coc... 1983 235,000 (08/04) 235,000 (05/06) CA, USA Ocean Air Ya...

 

[hcalmar]

Mike I'm with you. My purchase last November never made the list. And the multiple listing practice certainly distorts things. But the Banks and insurance companies and brokers are using this data, and/or BUCK or NADA or ABOS. Taken a look recently at the NADA price on our boats- it will make you sick.
Hal

 

[Genesis]

NADA is a crock and if you ask them they will admit it.

They apply a depreciation model for boats. Why? Because for cars and trucks there are auctions where they can certified sale data, and that's where THOSE numbers come from (the black-book number anyway; the other numbers are all calculated from that one.)

But - there are no such things for boats. The "as sold" data is suspect at best, there is an insufficient market to get real "averages", as every boat is different (a 2000 Camry is a 2000 Camry, more or less, adjusted for mileage) and as a consequence they throw up their hands and just go with a mathematical formula.

Simply put you cannot consider NADA useful for anything in the boat world EXCEPT outboard engines. There you have a sufficient market - and enough unit sales - where a depreciation model actually works rationally.

But nowhere else.

 

[Boss Lady]

Boats are not investments, they are expensive toys. Most of the people I have encountered boat brokers, boat yards etc. want what we have (some money). They see "their" money in "our" pockets and try to get as much of it as they can by: A) doing as little as possible, or B) just short going to jail in the process, although some probably should. Fortunately there are some really great people in the business, such as Sam's Marine and Tom Slane at Slane Marine. These great people made it an easy decision for me to refurbish an older Hatteras vs buy anything else (although I do have a 38 Fountain Tournament Edition for serious fishing, no girls allowed). I wanted an all glass hull, so I had to go back a few years (1973) to get a good hull. I also got a great pair of Detroits for cheap, since everyone is going to MANs and MTUs. Plus I dont have to have a $$$$ electronics diagnostics box and the equally $$$ technician. Plus it kind of sucks when you are 50 miles offshore or in the Bahamas and have a problem if you don't have both aboard. The detroits will get you home most of the time. I have seen the wonder boats, have you ever priced a repair on a cored hull? I saw one that delaminated under power, it turned into confetti and sank. Blue water boat, not by my definition. My old Hat will probably outlast me, if it does, point her east, light it on fire and push the throttles to the stops.

 

[GaryNW]

This thread may go on forever! One thing that we sometimes forget- about 90% of the so-called builders out there only exist because almost anyone can build a frp boat and the clorox bottle builders don't want/need a skilled workforce. Same labor pool as wally-world. Their customers don't know boats, why should they? You can believe that Christensen, Westport, Delta, Broward, Feadship and many others have some highly paid craftsmen on board. Got 20 million? Brands like Hatteras and Nordhavn are a niche market just like the big boys. One thing for sure, if I ever buy another new boat, it's going to be a tender to my 25 to 40 year old main squeeze.

BTW, I was about to subscribe to PM. I have lost the urge. Articles in the 5 or 6 freebees I get every month at WM are as good or better. I don't need to spend $6.00 to read about clorox bottles.
Gary

 

[Capt.Erich]

Brands like Hatteras and Nordhavn are a niche market just like the big boys.

Nordhaven's are nice but the are built in Tiawan as are many of the other "production" west coast boats. This is due to a combination of decreased labor cost and relaxed environmental laws. There was a rumor floating around several years ago that Hatteras (Brunswick) was considering the move as well. Thankfully that hasen't come to pass.

 

[luckydave215]

You don't have to pay for power and motoryacht if you want to read it. Just fill out the subscription form, indicating that you own an 80 footer, and that you are planning to buy a new one in the next year, they send in to you for free. My son filled out a form at the boat show one year with the same information, and checked off the boxes showing that we're interested in fishing, surfing, motorcycling, and flying. I recieve every magazine related to those subjects every month for free. (25+ magazines/month)

 

[Genesis]

Yep. PMY, like most of those rags, is really about salesmanship.

As for Nordhav'n being built overseas, so what? Its a great boat. As for the cost of labor, having grown up in a family with a father who was a CPA in a Union Shop, and having seen what passes as a "work day" in one first hand when I went to work with him a few times (believe it or not, at 12 I modified the firmware in their old Burroughs accounting machine to handle a social security tax rate change - something their "computer company" wanted thousands to do and which took me about two hours to figure out!) I refuse to shed a tear for our so-called "workforce erosion."

For an even better example of this one need only look at the UAW and what it has done to our competitiveness in the auto industry.

 

[doc g]

Hey, do not think that these clorox bottle guys aren't getting spanked pretty bad. I have a dock aquantaince who bought a used 57' Carver for around 700K three years ago. It has been on the market since last fall, with 50 plus other POS Carvers the same size. He's down to walking with maybe 450k after it's all said and done..........if he's real lucky. He said he'll never buy another "big" boat again. My boat bought at the same time would probably bring what I paid or more. I really feel that if you own anything of quality and take care of it ,and upgrade it when it needs it you won't lose much over time. I've had a lot of other boats and never really lost much at sale time or had to keep them on the market for very long. Of my two most recent boats , the first (39' express) was bought at significant discount as a dealer demo and sold seven years later for what I had paid for it- unsolicited. Boat was not for sale. Deal was too good to not sell. Second boat (46' MY) was again bought right and was sold six years later in two weeks with 25% difference in bought/sold prices. The broker got his 10%. The key , I think is to buy quality and buy it right. When I used to buy and sell cars we would say that we made the money on the front end. Here of course we are just offsetting the depreciation and other market influences. There are so many killer deals you just have to wait and find the right one. I think once these people ,(who do not know anything about boats and maintaining them get burned by the prices they pay to buy, maintain and upgrade )figure it out, they decide to get out at all costs . Thus we have alot of boats on the market and these folks are just bleeding to death to get rid of them. Some of course do the trade-up deal at the local clorox dealer and find themselves in the same position two or three years later. Plus the banks , insurance companies , yacht brokers ,and the state tax collector love this behavior. Regardless, I believe there will always be a market for quality boats that are well taken care of .

 

[GaryNW]

Clarification: By PM, I meant Passagemaker Magazine. Guess I was supposed to say PMM. I happened to buy a sample at the grocery store and it was the issue with the 360k 36' gasser.

I too receive several free subscriptions from boat show sign-ups. The industry obviously funds these "objective" pubs. Now, the freebees I refer to are mostly funded by individual ads that do not masquerade as anything else. These usually can be sent to you for a fee or you pick them up at your local marine supply free.
Gary

 

[spartonboat1]

FWIW, here I go slip-sliden on the thread point...this is for the professional project managers on this site regarding cost pressure. If you don't think the 120+' yachts built new are not under price pressure from customers, consider that Palmer-Johnson went into Chapter 11 (whatever) when a new boat (one of 4 140 footers) purchaser requested moving a transom door a foot or so and no "change control" documentation was formally executed. Mucho dollars/expenses later, without offsetting revenue from the customer, they (P-J) hit the iron law of overhead exceeded cash flow. Ergo see the Chapter doctor...

 

[Capt.Erich]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think tha the Nordhaven's are bad boats. A buddy of mine is managing a build over there now. He is very impressed with the factory and the work so far. As for Hatteras, the one major thing they have going for them is the fact that they have taken care of their employees and have therefore managed to keep the unions from getting in. They regulary post thier "profit reports" at the factory. Yes, they are making money but the margin is a lot les than in most other industries. Like the saying goes... If you want to make a million dollars in the yachting industrutry you have to start with ten million.

 

[jim rosenthal]

A few years ago, having helped two physician buddies of mine find a small diesel express sportfishing boat, I fielded a call from their accountant who wanted to buy a medium-size diesel MY. This guy was new to boating. His budget was much larger than mine will ever be (clearly I should have been an accountant for physicians rather than a physician myself- bad career move). I did a fair amount of research on used Hatteras MYs and determined that he could get everything he wanted in a used 43-48 Hatteras MY for about 350K or less.

Then he bought a new Carver, bad enough, and worse yet, with Volvo diesels, which I do not esteem greatly, although to be fair, other folks like them.

He couldn't get past the idea of a new boat being more reliable, or so he thought. Well, he spent 300K- more than twice as much as I have tied up in my Hatteras after fifteen years of ownership and boating- to buy "reliability" in a questionable brand not noted for keeping its' value, with engines that are not at the top of the heap either. It doesn't bother me that he tried to buy security for 300K- what bothers me is how little actual security he bought. I would put it at zero.

I believe that build quality and a company's history are a lot more important than style and having the latest gadgets on a boat. Quality and strength will save your life, in the right situation. They won't always, of course, but the odds for you may be a little better than the odds against you.

Gadgets, of course, will give you nothing but more things to fix over time.

I have nothing against new boats per se. What I have something against is cheaply built boats of poor design. They don't hold their value, they don't protect their owners as they should, and when something bad happens they cost all of us in terms of insurance losses that we all end up absorbing. And if they depreciate fast enough, their owners find they can't sell them and get out intact, so the boats end up being hurricane fodder because their owners can't be bothered to haul them when the clouds gather.

Notice this is all independent of style. From this point of view, I don't care whether a boat is ugly and resembles a running shoe or not. I just want to be on board something that will get me home alive if I keep up the maintenance.

Time to go boating, today...up here.

 

[Pascal]

here are two pictures i took of a ferreti 62 which remained afloat after wilma... note how teh hull failed with little rubbing, it simply cracked. in the close up, you can see some "Stuff" in there, i think Pascoe calls that "hamburger helper material"

compare this to the pictures of sunken hatts where you will see heavy repeated grinding resulting in holes, but no clean breaking.

this is what most people get nowadays... Note that I saw this boat again for the first time last week end, not fully repaired after 9 months, still has some plastic over the portholes...