Westerbeke Generator Problem

[Freebird]

During a recent 5 day cruise on my 41DC, I was awakened by the sound of my 7kw Westerbeke gas generator shutting down at about 4am. My first thought was it ran out of gas as that side was showing low on fuel. After refueling later that morning, the generator proved very hard to start. I checked the fuel water seperating filter, and it was full of fuel. Oil and coolant levels were fine. Then I played with the stop switch on the remote panel, and it started, ran for about 5 seconds, and then shut itself down. I found that if I continued to flip the stop button up and down, it would keep running, but seemed to be overspeeding. While it was running, I loaded it, and it came down to the proper rpm and showed proper voltage. It ran fine all day while we were crusing. Then we pulled in to a marina for an overnight stay. The next morning, I fired it again, same problem. However, this time when I tried the same routine as before with the stop switch, the generator oversped, smoked my DVD, and kicked the circuit breaker on the panel a the generator. After resetting the breaker, it would still fire up, run 5 seconds, and then die. I know there are shutdown sensors for speed, temp, and oil. One of these sensors or a faulty stop switch is shutting the engine down. Anybody have any ideas on where to start in troubleshooting this problem?

 

[Pascal]

RPM doesn't affect just voltage but also Frequency.... never bring a genset on line if you feel the RPM is off. If you dont have a frequency meter, get one... I have a Shurite which i keep plugged in the saloon on an outlet that's easy to see.

https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/P...rite+line+monitor&n=&MPN=9016LFT&DESC=9016LFT

you need to look at the wiring diagram. safety switches need to be bypassed either by holding a run switch and immediately after start or by a timer. My norpro 18 uses a 10 second timer... it failed once and the clue was that the genset would shutdown like clockwork after 10 seconds. since it's activated by a starter key, there was no way to reset it while running.

other wstbk owners may be able to tell you how it's set up, or check the wstbk website for diagrams.

a few years a go, I coudlnt' start a stbk gas 7.5. from the remote panel. turned out the stop switch on the genset was sticking....

if you have sensor problem (possible, I've had to replace 2 oil press sensor on my norpro in 3 years), you can troubleshoot by temporarily disconnecting or grounding, depends on design, the sensors one at a time.. obviously, dont let it run like that without a good watch on the gauges, esp. temp.

 

[Freebird]

Thanks for the reply. Things are really tight in the bilge on this genny, so I'm hoping to avoid a full test scenario of each shutdown sensor. Hoping another Westerbeke owner will have experienced the same problem and have the magic answer.

 

[CapetaniosG]

Randy- I don't mean to scold you, but I was alarmed to read in your post that you gen set woke you up in the middle of the night. Do you go to bed with the gen set running? That's a NO NO NO NO! It can kill you and every one else on the boat. The culprit Carbon monoxide. It is odorless and deadly. Please shut it down before you go to sleep. Even with a factional alarm system aboard, I would shut it down.

CapetaniosG
Hatteras 53MY

 

[Pascal]

diesels do not present the same CO risk as gas gensets, thousands of owners run them at nightm i've yet to hear of a single accident.

that said, i added 3 CO detector in my boat after i got it...

if it's well maintained, in good shape, etc...no risks.

 

[CapetaniosG]

Pascal- With all due respect I can't agree with you on this one. You're dead wrong regardless how well you maintain your Gen set. There are documented cases were people died due to carbon monoxide from a gen set left on at night while people slept on the boat.

What happens if you have a runaway gen set while you're sleeping?
What about a fire? What about a defective exhaust system or a failed exhaut hose? Think about it.

CapetaniosG
Hatteras 53 MY

 

[Freebird]

I do have two separate alarms onboard (110v w/9v dc back-up), and I guess it could be argued that I trust them with my life. However, I feel the risk is minmal as long as proper maintenance is done on the genny and the exhaust system is inspected regularly. Quite frankly, I wouldn't own a boat without a generator and air, and I wouldn't be able to sleep on one where I didn't have the air conditioning running. I've spent many a night on the hook with the genny running as I'm not much of a marina person. There are too many pretty anchorages out there, and I like my privacy. The only time I ever had a problem was when I was tied along side a buddy, and his genny set off my alarm. I immediately went to check on him because he was the adventurous type and didn't have an alarm! Turned out he was okay, and we turned his boat 180 degrees so we would both be discharging out exhaust to the outside. Thanks for your concern, but this old boy can't handle sleeping on sweat soaked sheets!

 

[Pascal]

bottom line is that sleeping on the hook in florida (and many other places) in summer without AC is simply not an option.

Yes there has been accidents BUT :

- none with diesels, afaik
- mutiple CO detectors eliminate the risk
- most accidents involved boats tied up with stern anchors in lakes with no wind or boats that were rafted up or rivers with the stern upwind. Not single boats on a single anchor.

as far as major malfunction, I've always woken up for the slightest noise when on the hook... not worried. Fire, etc ? automatic fire extinguisher....

 

[Freebird]

A big ole' amen on that one. To me shutting down the genny at night would be the same as killing the power at home to prevent electrical fires while I was sleeping. Life is a gamble, go for it! Besides, if you don't keep your genny running, your beer is going to get hot! I don't know about you guys, but to date, aside from the little lights on the electrical panel of my 58TC, I have found only one dc light on the whole damn boat. It's over the dinette in the galley. Were there more that are now gone, or did Hatteras just assume their boats would always be hooked to either shorepower or have a generator running?

 

[Fanfare]

I have never heard of anyone experiencing a runaway generator. At least not on boats our size. On a Detroit Diesel a runaway can happen, because the blower seals can fail, leaking lube oil into the air intake. This is sucked into the cylinders and burns along with the injected fuel oil. RPM zooms and the engine can explode. But the smaller generators don't need this much power and are mostly naturally aspirated, without these two-cycle blowers. Of course, on a boat there is always SOMETHING waiting to happen, and I can conceive of how this could happen. But this is one I have not heard related, in many hours of discussing various boat malfunctions.

If I am not at a dock my generator is almost always on. In part this is because I have gotten water backflowing from the waterlift muffler into the generator cylinders when rolling in very rough seas. I quickily learned it was cheaper to run the genny than to rebuild it!

With a Diesel generator the amount of CO is far less than with gasoline. Always remember that the boat next to you can also kill you. Therefore, on Fanfare every stateroom (3) has a 9v CO detector as well as a separate smoke detector for fire which is wired into the ship's burglar alarm system. I'm not entirely happy with the CO detectors I have as I do not believe they have an Underwriter's Labs marine certification, but I did not find any with this. I do think I will add an every 30 day inspection of my generator exhaust line and fittings to my "to do" list. I will pay particular attention to the junction of exhaust and the place where salt water is injected into this line because this is the hottest and most corrosive place of all, and therefore most likely to fail.

 

[Fanfare]

Re 12 volt lights:

Every single room, including the engine rooms and generator room, on my 1965 boat has both 120v and 12v lighting. Generally the overhead room lights are 120, while the reading lamps over each bed are 12. Each head has two sets of switches, with two lamps. Hatteras designed her with totally redundant systems. We lose the luxuries if the generator quits, but all the important stuff (fresh water, toilets) runs 12. I added the inverter to keep the fridge cool--have not been so spoiled as to add the ice maker yet.

 

[Liquid Asset]

WOW! I can not even imagine sleeping on our boat in the summer without A/C. This means that we either have to run the ac or not fish overnight. I think we will run the genset. I have 4 co2 detectors. One in each Stateroom and one in the Salon. I will take my chances. there is not any more risk to that then having a fire at your house and not being able to get out cause you are sleeping.

Ever been to a mooring in florida with non sailboaters? Every non sailboat has a genset running. There is a reason for that.

 

[Freebird]

I wouldn't worry that my co2 monitors didn't have a marine certification. I have found from past experience that "marine" monitors are notorious for falsing. I've owned several boats with factory installed alarms only to find the previous owner had installed a toggle switch to be able to shut these damn things off. There are home units available which operate on 110v ac with 9v dc back up batteries. I can't remember the name of the ones I bought, but I bought them at Lowe's (go to Home Depot if you're a Tony Stewart fan, I like Jimmy Johnson myself). You can bet your life that these things are going to be trustworthy. Why do I say that? Can you imagine the size of the settlement the manufacturer would have to pay if somebody croaked because of a faulty alarm? So crank up that genny and do some comfortable snoozin'.

 

[34Hatt]

If I am not at a dock my generator is almost always on. In part this is because I have gotten water backflowing from the waterlift muffler into the generator cylinders when rolling in very rough seas. I quickily learned it was cheaper to run the genny than to rebuild it!

Wouldn't it be cheaper to fix the exhaust system then running it for that reason. If Installed correct this can not happen. Tony Athens on boat diesel has many threads on this subject and is great reading it may be as easy as rerouting a hose? If not he can build you a riser that will work that guy can do anything and its always the right way!!!

 

[Pascal]

same thing happened to my norpro 18 after i installed an inverter and i started running the boat without the genset. 2 issues... improper exhaust routing, muffler was in original location against hull with a long uphill run from bottom of sound shield to muffler (fixed by moving the muffler close to genset) and also a lower than the orignal Onan exhaust manifold, too close to water line (solved by adding syphon break).

 

[Trojan]

I agree with Pascal. I run my generator anytime I am out of port. Anchored or not. If I can't trust the safety devises that I or Hatteras have installed on My boat. What good are they. Runaways can happen anytime. IF you do your maintenance Like you are supposed too. You can enjoy the comforts. C/O from a diesel is less dangerous than gas. I worry more when the admiral cooks than anything else. It's the boats that are moored improper with the wrong air flow that run into trouble. Rafting with generators is a real danger anytime. I WILL KEEP COOL.



BILL

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I'm not affraid to run the gen at night either. There is some risk, but I believe it is minimal and if you have CO detectors, it is almost zero. As long as I can wake up, I can always make a quick exit out the escape hatch if necessary.

Now as far as low voltage lights: I think Hatteras set all boats up with both low and high voltage lights in every cabin. My 1985 had some of those 32v lights rewired to 110v. I promptly changed those back to the original design. It wasn't always easy, though. Some of the old 32v wires were just cut and taped and laying in the headliner. Some things that people have done to my boat in the past really make me mad. I wish they would have just left it alone. It takes at least twice as long to fix something that someone else did wrong than to fix the original problem.

 

[Fanfare]

Dan--

You are right-it was fairly cheap to fix the waterlift muffler so it didn't back flow into the generator. Ended up moving the muffler, and installing a siphon break clear up through the gen room overhead, so it is now under the galley seat. Had to remove the end of a drawer to make room. That was 28 years ago. Since this forum wasn't around I regret that it took me about a year just to figure out why the generator was failing as it did not happen often. Had to be in really super rough seas which I now try to avoid. I think we would roll so much that the generator oil pump would suck air, in which case the low-oil pressure switch automatically shut the thing down. It cost me a new generator, a rebuild, and a lot of trouble. I have had no problem since--but I still never turn the generator off when I am at sea. I might once the anchor is down, but that's when I need the hot water heater, stove, AC, icemaker and lights, so I mostly don't.

As I think about this, I guess I have to say that I believe the location of the original waterlift muffler was a design flaw. It was in the generator room, just about at the waterline, on the far outboard side of the hull. The old Onan was two feet below it on the centerline. Thus the water inside the muffler had a pretty good drop when at extreme roll angles, particularly if the generator had suddenly stopped while running under load, so it was really full of cooling water. But that is about the only design flaw I can think of in the whole boat. That's not a bad record for Jack Hargrave. Just wish I had figured it out sooner, as it ruined several trips. (I had a bunch of boatyard guys and the Onan people thinking about it too with few suggestions.)

I also find that for the last few years I have been staying at docks more often. Probably due to the presence of small grandchildren who function better if they can get ashore for exercise. My generator needs exercise too, and I'm just going to try to give it more in the future.

 

[Freebird]

I'm not affraid to run the gen at night either. There is some risk, but I believe it is minimal and if you have CO detectors, it is almost zero. As long as I can wake up, I can always make a quick exit out the escape hatch if necessary.

Now as far as low voltage lights: I think Hatteras set all boats up with both low and high voltage lights in every cabin. My 1985 had some of those 32v lights rewired to 110v. I promptly changed those back to the original design. It wasn't always easy, though. Some of the old 32v wires were just cut and taped and laying in the headliner. Some things that people have done to my boat in the past really make me mad. I wish they would have just left it alone. It takes at least twice as long to fix something that someone else did wrong than to fix the original problem.

I think most everybody is in agreement on the generator issue. I'm still hoping somebody will address my original question and make my day. Looks like all my dc lights (except for the one over the dinette) have been converted to 110v. I haven't looked under the headliner, but my overhead lights are fluorescent. Again, I don't know if that's the way it came. I have found a good number of cut wires while inspecting behind the helm, and I also found a number of hot wires (which are numbered) that are not hooked to anything at the electrical panel. I have the wiring diagrams but haven't had time to trace all this stuff yet. I'm like you, it is mind boggling that someone would spend big bucks on the best engineered, best finished boat on the water, and then proceed to screw around with it. You want to find the idiot and give him a good shaking while asking "what the hell were you thinking?" I'm embarassed to have anybody on board enter the master stateroom on the 58 that I just purchased. Believe it or not, an older couple lived on the boat "up north" and among other dumb things they did, they removed the original dresser and night stands and replaced them with mobile home grade "white" ones (somebody in Cincinnati has a hell of a nice piece of furniture in their mobile home!). As if that were not enough, they covered all the walls with white padded vinyl, then covered the wood trim in red velvet! The red velvet theme was carried on to the headboard as well. I'm seriously considering contacting the cable tv networks and see if they will commission a "Pimp My Boat" series. I'd be the hands down winner of a remake. If that doesn't work out, maybe I'll just leave it alone and see if I can find some red light bulbs! The hell of it is, these folks paid good money to screw up a perfectly good boat as the work was professionally done. I can't wait to get this thing home and start ripping all the crap out of it.

 

[Pascal]

most of the lights on my 53 are AC, unfortunately... dont' know if or when some where converted but i dont' see why anybody would consider it...

re your generator, how old is it ? it helps to provide all the info when asking a specific question. dont' know how close it is, I had a 7.5 gas wstbk,98 vintage... the safety switches were bypassed by holding the run switch when starting so if the genny stops when you release the switch, it has to be either the oil press or the overheat switch.

i can't think of any reason why "playing" with the stop switch would keep it running. Speed is controled by the governor, i'm guessing that's where you problem is... i doubt there is a magic answer.