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Rudder Work Labor Hours

  • Thread starter Thread starter capttonyf
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Hey BoatSB - Wish I could bring my boat to you. Looks like you are on the wrong side of the continent though. I work by the hour too and while there are times I don't bill for all the hours that I work, because of mistakes or other factors, I would never bill for more hours than actually worked. Seems like a simple concept to me.
Thanks
Chris
 
Boats can not be billed out at book because of the unexpected. Rust, access and modifications make it interesting.
 
Get a hold of Roger Worthington he is at Kolertor genorator . He may have the labor book Hatteras used to pay their dealers by. I have seen one a long time ago at Cannon Boat workes they made repairs for hatteras as well as launched the boats comming from Highpoint. Jarret bay may still be a dealer for Hatteras call them and ask the prices they will give you a quote.

MAN I BELIVE YOU GOT PLUCKED!!!! IN A LOT OF THE PLACES.

Do you or anyone else have Roger's contact information or the name and address or the Gen place. I can't seem to find it?

Thanks

Tony
 
Labor hours in the ook is based on warranty and repair for new boats. When corrosion gets in loved all bets are off.

Also as a manufacturer it may be deemed a conflict especially if they are a Kohler dealer.

Have they explained how the billing for each part of job did not overlap other parts? Have they shown the hours worked as true? I think you'll be best off on that path. I would look into how they arrived at the numbers and ask why but if they did have people working on your boat for that time it's billable.
 
Labor hours in the ook is based on warranty and repair for new boats. When corrosion gets in loved all bets are off.

Also as a manufacturer it may be deemed a conflict especially if they are a Kohler dealer.

Have they explained how the billing for each part of job did not overlap other parts? Have they shown the hours worked as true? I think you'll be best off on that path. I would look into how they arrived at the numbers and ask why but if they did have people working on your boat for that time it's billable.

They're getting back to me on true hours worked part. I agree that's my best path. They just trew number up and when I asked tried to make up and match hours to match cost. Problem is they were not accurate. I was told I will now be givena bill based on true hours so we'll see. My point to them is this. If you told me only the lower bearings needed repalced and it was 8 hours of labor I'd believe you because you have to take apart the boat. If you told me 8 hours to replace upper bearings, I'd believe you because you have to take apart the boat. If you told me it took 4 hours to repack and only repack the rudder gland I'd believe you because you have to take the boat apart.

My problem is once its apart, tillers off, fish box out, rudders dropped for one Item. The other related items should drop in price because your not taking it apart and putting it fully back together 3 times. Just once for ALL 3 Jobs.

So we'll see.

Tony
 
When I was in the auto repair business this was a sore point. The mechanics wanted to get paid for each job separately. I would not allow that to happen. The right thing to do is charge only for the extra time required once the system or component is apart. "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin them only once."
 
Fred, I like your quote .... That's why I love the Brewer yards. They have treated me fairly and I shout it from the highest flybridge. I have heard similiar good reports about Boatsb but too bad he's all the way in Fla.

Walt
 
Fred, I like your quote .... That's why I love the Brewer yards. They have treated me fairly and I shout it from the highest flybridge. I have heard similiar good reports about Boatsb but too bad he's all the way in Fla.

Walt

But trip beats winterizing.
 
Scott.... Normally I would agree with you (actually I still do) but after running up and down the coast from NJ to Fla and the Bahamas over 30 times over many years I am tired and getting old. I'll be 80 in a couple of years and every now and again I think of doing the trip one more time. My friend does it every year and he's actually older than me (sorry Bob Kassal) lol.. by weeks I believe, so my excuse is very poor. Bob rates you very highly for quality of work and fair prices and his word is good enough for me. Perhaps if we can get another experienced couple to crew with us, we would do it. We would probably stay in St Augustine most of the time as So Fla has gotten so crowded.

Regarding this thread.... I am sort of diminished about the subject of the bill Tony received. On several of my winters in So Fla I used the same yard and found them to be quite honest and fair. Perhaps things change. I sincerely wish that Tony and the service provider yard in question are able to work out their issue.

Walt
 
Regarding this thread.... I am sort of diminished about the subject of the bill Tony received. On several of my winters in So Fla I used the same yard and found them to be quite honest and fair. Perhaps things change. I sincerely wish that Tony and the service provider yard in question are able to work out their issue.

Walt

The yard is a good yard and they do great work. I've delivered more than a few boats there through the years and I always sat and watched the work being done. The workers moved efficiently and the yard billed fairly according to what the work and hours performed appeard to be. The first boat I ever took there where I wasn't able to sit there and watch was our own boat unfortunately. I don't alway think it's the Yard owner, accountings, or yard managers fault sometimes when a bill gets a little high. They go off what the mechanics time cards state, their "word", then they bill it out. If a yard manager, boat owner, or Captain are not there watching the machanics, then I know some, not all, but some get lazy.

We're all human, and they're not feeling well, tired, bad mood, something on thir mind and they drag for the day and the owner pays for it. I'm not saying that happened here, they may have run into some issues I'm not aware of.

I'm flying down to meet with them on Friday and pay the bill regardless of what it is. Again, in my expierience they always have been nice, fair, and done good work. I'm just hoping they can show me why certain items didn't overlap and were high, "Problems" or they say after looking more closely we found an error and can discount this and this a little. I'll post how it works out.

One thing for sure is I'll never leave a boat in the yard again without me or someone else there everyday watching. That way I'll knowwithout guessing if the time is right or wrong.

Tony
 
IMHO cell phones are the worst culprit. Everywhere you go from the boat yard to my moms nursing home people are not doing their jobs because their constantly dicking around with their phones. All these places of bussiness should collect up the phones when they come to work and give them back at quiting time. Youd see a lot more work get done!!!!!
 
IMHO cell phones are the worst culprit. Everywhere you go from the boat yard to my moms nursing home people are not doing their jobs because their constantly dicking around with their phones. All these places of bussiness should collect up the phones when they come to work and give them back at quiting time. Youd see a lot more work get done!!!!!

I could not agree with you more. Smart phones have killed productivity and customer service. I've stood at the cash register of a grocery store waiting for the clerk to finish her text before ringing up my groceries. I never want to be one of those kinds of people. I have a stupid phone - it just does calls. No texting, no internet, no email. I have a laptop at home for that. I'd love to see employers collect cell phones at the door.
 
We have rules at work about that. I will say that the rules are enforced selectively, but in what I think is a good way. Occasional non-work calls are okay. Being on the phone when you are supposed to be doing your job is NOT okay, and folks have been warned, or sacked in extreme cases. Word gets around.

And I agree that having them around all the time is a major productivity time suck. Down the rabbit hole. This is why I carry a dumb phone. I don't want the temptation. I don't take my iPad to work, either.
 
And all this time I thought I was the only one with an old fashioned "dumb phone" flip phone thingy. I hate being at a business meeting when someone announces the sorry I have to take this call...10 minutes later re enters the meeting and asks to be brought up to date.

I do agree that one of the best things to do is be on site when your boat is being worked on and keep notes. That being said, I don't think too many folks would be interested or have the time to hang around a working boat yard all day. If you do that, then why not just do the work yourself.....

Walt
 
You're not the only one. I have an iPad and love it, but it stays home. I have a flip phone which works fine as a phone. Personally I have found iPhones are not as good just as telephones, but not everyone agrees on that, some folks like them fine. My own observation is that young people do not talk on the phone very much- they seem to prefer messaging of one type or another. My parents used to complain we were on the phone all the time. Evidently the march of technology has ironically cured that, and replaced it with something worse.
 
It's just a simple degradation of society and lack of manners. It used to be priority: person in front of you talking to, #1. Phone rings, #2. Letter #3......now people are rude and the phone takes over people talking to. Not to mention all the stupid "conference calls" and millions of worthless emails the bureaucrats send out each day.

Remember the day of "only call the boss if it is important"? Now the boss is attached at the hip with a cell phone and people always call. It creates a system of micromanagement and now the people on the ground have no input and thus lose their skills. You think the modern US Navy of equality could fix a broken ship in the middle of the ocean without its satellite communication to call back to a contractor and ask for help?
 
How did the negotiations go ?
 
That's how much I paid for MY WHOLE BOAT! And it all works.
 
So this is the final deal, I'm going to post below the estimates, the hours they say they worked and what they charged.

1st the work was good, Boat runs smooth, seals and rudders aren't leaking, and we turned 2350 RPM and hit 27 Knots. The work isn't and never was the issue, it was the claimed hours.

When it was determined at the yard, that the rudders, and shafts needed new packing and Bearings, and that the Drippless Seals were getting close. The yard gave me estimats if I was to do each indivual task. I asked if the labor would overlap if I do all the items, such as to pack the rudders you don't need to charge FULL labor if your dropping the rudders to do the bearings and they said yes, But the're "estimates" it could be less, it could be more if we run into issues, But again YES if you do all items you don't pay to R&R the rudders 3 times indivdually. I said OK do the rudder work but I'm going to hold off on the Drippless Shaft Seals.

While do ing the rudder work they noticed a crack in the port shaft and said it needed replaced so I said, OK, replace it. After the shaft was out, I got a call from the yard and was asked, since 1 shaft is out and 1 drippless seal is already apart, you might as well save the future Full Labor and just do the seals now since one is already disassembled. It's like part of the labor for that original estimate is already being done anyway. So I agreed and said your right, it's already apart, go ahead and do the dripless seals.

When I finally got the bill I noticed each item, even though some of the labor over laps was billed at near full estimate for each itask as if they were done indivally from one another. Full etimate to do the shaft seal even though one shaft was already out. Over full estimate to do rudder packing even though the rudders were already out for bearings.

At that point I asked the yard for a breakdown of the mechanics hours for each task performed so I could see how they compare with Labor being billed under each item. The next afternoon is when I received a breakdown of hours totalling the labor charged. The problem with that was it was MADE UP HOURS per task. I know this becaus esome mechanics listed were working 10.5 hour days on only our boat, and also two different people billed out on seperate days to pack the rudders. One guy billed out and charge 3.5 hours to repack the rudders like 3 days before another guy installed the rudders and listed packing the rudder gland as one of his tasks.

When I brought this the the attention of the OWNER of the yard he told me I was wrong in my reasoning and "Now He's Pissed". Those were his exact words to me. H e then said we gave you estimates and came in near the estimates and now you want to question it. I said yes, because they were "ESTIMATES" if we were to do each line Item seperately not if we did all and the labor overlaps. I said these weren't "QUOTES" where if it's high or low it doesn't matter, they were in your service managers words rough estimates. Meaning if it come in less I expect to pay less, because I know if it came in High you would charge more because your not going to eat the labor. Even though I pointed out a couple obvious issues that I was charged twice for he still said he was pissed. I couldn't believe it. So he discounted the $27,111.69 Bill $302.36 becuase I showed him one thing he couldn't fight with me about. I said as a customer I don't deserve an explination without you getting pissed, I should just eat the $302.36 even though I feel I'm eating more than that. So I said I'd like to see the time cards because I don't believe the hours and his answer was " Fine, you want charged actual hours then we'll charge you actual Hours and your going to pay $3 to $4,000 more then your paying now, I'm good with that. I'll have the girls pull the time cards and charge you actual hours" I said at that point then what were the hours you emailed me? Were they made up, just to justify a labor item? Thats what I thought happened, that's why I questioned it. This isn't right. I could tell he was getting more aggrevated, and so he didn't try to pull some legal lock the boat down thing I jsut said look. I'm not trying to mes with you, I just want it fair. I'll pick it up Friday. So we get the final total and we wire the money and pick up the boat. Then this is the kicker that upset me worse afer the fact.

I take a look at the final bill after we wired the money and they charged us like $500 dockeage for 11 days. I called them July 1st to ask the staus of the boat and they told me they just completed the work and would invoice me. I got the invoice July 2nd. I looked on the Bill they started charging me dockage on June 30th. So I called them and said he told me it was customary to chage daockage after the work was complete. I said you don't notify me when it's finished, I had to call you and now after giving you $27K you want to bill me dockage because I needed a few days to look over the bill and make arrangements to pick up the boat. a Heads up it's nearing completion would've been helpful. So I look at a rebuttle they sent me when I questioned the bill and it stated Dockage to start July 30th. they messed up and meant to right June 30th so they had to send me a check for the dockage but I just couldn't believe it. I've never seen business handled like that where a customer has a question and you lie to them about the hours billed, then when he questions that, you tell him your Pissed Off and "Now " your really going to get the actual hours together. If he would've given me the actual hours at the beginning and justified it, I would've been fine, but he lied to me. Not only did they lie, they lied in writing. Here are the charges below.

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