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Dupont Imron 3.5 HG

  • Thread starter Thread starter BobWaz
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BobWaz

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  1. OWNER - I own a Hatteras Yacht
Hatteras Model
40' DOUBLE CABIN-Series I (1986 - 1989)
I have a 1963 34 SC that I wish to repaint the hull, cabin, etc. Further, I wish to paint it by brush. Back in the days of wood, I learned how to paint by brush from the Egg Harbor and Pacemaker people. Trust me, it can be done to look as good as a spray job. I did contact Hatteras recently to ask what Dupont Imron Paint they use. I was told They have not used Imron for ten years and now use Alexseal products. In going to the Dupont web site, I found the Imron 3.5 HG product (Formerly 333M) that is intended for industrial use including marine. In looking at the data sheets it appears to be quite friendly for application on to other bases, brush or roller, wide temperature application and humidity range. My questions are........Is this the product Hatteras used? Does anyone have experience with it? It is not readily available at the local Dupont automotive paint supply. As I live on Lake Champlain, the closest places to obtain it are either in NJ or up in Canada.
Thank You...........BobWaz
 
I believe they used a epoxy paint when your boat was new. I would reccomend Sterling or Awlgrip for brush painting. They have the catalysts and reducers for brushing. I have never seen anyone brush a large area with Imron.
There are guys around here who brush paint boats with Awlgrip and Sterling and it looks as good or better than spray jobs.
 
Bob, From what I have heard, but don't know if this is simply a rumor, but the Alexseal is basically the old Imron formula. DuPont simply had to get rid of all the good VOC stuff to keep there marketibility up, and the maker of Alexseal basically moved in. Again, this may be rumor, but I've heard great things about the alexseal product. As far as brushing, your on target. I've seen many boats brushed, rolled & tipped etc, that you can't tell the difference between them and spraying. I think the trick is how much activator and hardener you add, and the conditions you are doing it in. After you find out those aspects, your learned technique should work well. Commercial jobs are $1,000/Ft so doing it your self is a great idea. As I posted before, just be careful with these paints.
 
Everyone has a favorite due to either experience or what someone told them was the best. I don't really think there is a nickels worth of difference in any of them as far as application in the real world. All the name brand stuff is durable, but the market leaders are expensive. Awlgrip is good paint, it has been marketed heavily to all the yards, and its' main selling point is the quick drying time, which is important to production. I don't think that Awlgrip is the best paint. Awlgrip will give adequate service (10 years). I think their product is overpriced. With that said, use what you are familiar with, and feel comfortable applying, painting a boat is a big job. I painted a Lincoln town car I had (in black, no less) with industrial enamel ($35 a gallon) and I dare anyone to look at it and tell me it is not done with Dupont or PPG overpriced paint. The original clear coat peeled off at 3 years, I got a $7000 quote from the body shop, so I decided to do it myself. The autopaint store wanted $600 for the materials, and they sell the different components for the base coat, clear paint system in unequal containers, so you always have some materials left over, this pissed me off, so I just bought 2 gallons of hi-gloss industrial enamel and put hardner in it. I was going to clear coat it but it was so shiny, that I couldn't bring myself to shoot the clear on it. I sold the car 5 years ago, and it still looks fantastic. I couldn't resist taking it over to the body shop and showing it off, It took me and a friend 3 days to strip the moldings, prep and paint it. I painted a buddy's truck with polyurethane, 2 gallons cost $240, came out slick as glass. Base coat clear paint system was invented to benefit the insurance industry and the car dealers, so they only have to pay for painting the repair, not the whole car. There is a lot of money spent on marketing boat paint, don't believe the hype. Look at the conditions required for application of the paint system, temperature, humidity, hazardous fumes, etc, and select one that meets your painting needs, then look at price. The pros will use what they are familiar with because they cannot afford surprises, using the same brand will usually provide consistent results, so they are reluctant to try anything new. Awlgrip was pushed heavily years ago and made some market penetration when awlgrip offered quicker turn times than the competitors, so you will see a lot of awlgrip being pushed, because this is what they know. However Awlgrip prices have not come down with increased sales, but instead has gone up steadily. You will also pay high retail prices to get it yourself, since they protect their dealer network very well. Dupont is just as guilty as the rest of them. I like Ameron paints since I can talk to their engineers, and they supply the shipping industry. Their prices reflect the volume they do, typically 1/3 the price of what is pushed at the recreational market and you can easily obtain real world service records of paint performance in some very harsh environments. You can buy it from most industrial suppliers, instead of a "retail" vendor. If you need a gallon just buy it where ever, but if you are going to do a whole boat then the price should reflect a bulk buy.
 
I build commercial boats for a living so I,ve sprayed thousands of gallons of commercial grade paints over the years mostly Devoe. Ameron bought Devoes marine market about 8 years ago same formulas just a differnt name. Today you can buy Devoe from ICI Dulux paint stores most of the formula #s are the same as Ameron and you can usually get them much cheaper under the Devoe brand. The main differance between the commercial paints and products like Awlgrip or Imron is the ratio of resin to pigment. The commercial paints contain a lot more pigment which makes them cover much better but they don't have that deep gloss obtainable with Awlgrip. They also lack the wide variety of auxillary products that allow you to adjust the paint to your on site conditions.

I can buy a gallon of Devoe #389 urethane for about $28. A gallon of Awlgrip is about $128. I spend the money for the Awlgrip because In my opinion it would simply not be possable to get the same result from the commercial grade paints. I think they are both equaly durable it's just an apearance thing.

As far as brushing these products goes the problem I've had is with the primers it seems almost imposable to get coverage and build without heavy brush streaks. Which leaves me sanding off most of what I put on maybe I'm doing some thing wrong? The finish paint flows out very nicely and with a little pratice a job equal to or sometimes better than spray can be obtained

Brian
 
I have sprayed and maintained both Dupont Imron and Awlgrip. The finish obtained with Imron is somewhat smoother, can be polished, and you can touch up spots or whole areas. Our '86 Hat 36C still looks like new with the original Imron. Hatteras has the exact paint numbers, but I posted them on an earlier thread. Awlgrip doesn't want any abrasives used for polishing. My sailboat was painted with Awlgrip and it doesn't hold up as well as my Hat. I use 3M Finesse it II as a polish for our Hat and NO wax. If you like black streaks, use wax.
 
I think you should look at Ameron's High Gloss paints. Yes most of their straight up industrial marine paints are only semi-gloss, but they do make some very good high gloss paints that are used on mega yachts (read mo' expensive than your Hat). Look at PSX 700 or one of their newer formulations. Awlgrip does offer a wide variety of additives to allow the user to control drying times , but at the expense of paint life. You can't have one without the other. To be honest, awlgrip should be named awlcrap. It allows painters to cut corners so they can make more money, that is the only positive about it. This is great if you make a living painting boats, it sucks if you are the boat owner. If you have the time there are many superior paint products to use instead of awlgrip. Imeron's paint life is double or triple to that of awlgrip, so for the exact same amount of labor expense you get twice the value or more. So tell me again why awlgrip is such great paint?
 
Hi,

BobWaz there is a Dupont all products dealer in Glens Falls, NY...Motive Power and Paint on Warren St. I buy hundreds of gallons of Dupont Industrial Coatings from them and they, as i say, have the complete line.

I kept my boat at Chipman's Point for a couple of years and that was about an hour from Glens Falls as a reference point. About 2 hours from Essex if you are on that side.

Ted
 
If you take into account the high cost of labor to paint a boat or an airplane it only makes sense to use a very high quality paint with a proven track record. Do your own research into the longevity of the different paints. Imron was used on high quality boats for decades, it is still the paint of choice for aircraft. It is expensive paint. With that said, you may be able to get away with using awlgrip if you live in a very moderate climate, in the more southern latitudes the UV seems to degrade awlgrip really quick. I was looking at a 54 Bertram that was painted with awlgrip, and the paint job was only 6 years old but it looked like it was 30 year old paint. It was chaulky and no amount of polishing would bring a luster. The boat broker told me that he could get me a "special" deal, wink, wink, and get it painted for $20K through one of his contacts so the boat needing paint was only a minor issue. I guess he thought I was a former Sea Ray owner. My Hatteras was painted with awlcrap when I bought it. I knew the PO and saw the boat come out of the paint shop. After 3 years in the Bahamas the paint was completely dead. I have seen enough 20+ year old imron paint jobs on boats and planes that still look good. I have not seen an awlgrip paint job that made it to 10. I am not an expert, but this is my casual observation. Any of you Florida boys want to comment on awlgrips performance since Florida is a good testing ground.
 
TedZ said:
Hi,

BobWaz there is a Dupont all products dealer in Glens Falls, NY...Motive Power and Paint on Warren St. I buy hundreds of gallons of Dupont Industrial Coatings from them and they, as i say, have the complete line.

I kept my boat at Chipman's Point for a couple of years and that was about an hour from Glens Falls as a reference point. About 2 hours from Essex if you are on that side.

Ted
..........Ted, Thank you for the information. This dealer was not listed within the Dupont web site. We happen to be in Champlain, NY about two miles from the Canadian border. I would rather make the trip south over fighting the French/English translation battle in Quebec. Again with my original post, by chance do you have experience with the Imron 3.5 HG product? Did Hatteras use this or the automotive finish? Again in looking at the Imron 3.5 HG spec sheets, it appears to be a very friendly product to apply and apply over existing paints, primers etc. I am quite fortunate to be the manager of Treadwell Bay Marina. We just built a 60 X 100 ft service building with radiant in floor heat. I will be moving my boat indoors for the project. Thanks again, Bob
 
The Hatteras Imron White part # is 67766U.
 
Boss Lady said:
The Hatteras Imron White part # is 67766U.

Dear Chris......I assume that the part # is for color match only. I just went to the dupont web site and found 20 different Imron formulations for different applications. Searching on the part number gives no results. Thanks, Bob
 
Dear Bob, don't over science yourself on which Imron formulation is the best, even the friggin experts don't know how the new stuff will do. Ask Dupont for some 20 year data and go with that. If they have something newer you are doing a science experiment. I know that the automotive formula holds up extremely well. You can call it what you want but the real name of the game is to sell you the most expensive product. Yes Hatteras used what is called the automotive formula the same way the airplane people did. All of this is just marketing bullshit. If you want to hear of miracle paint just for boats they will sell it to you. But the reality is there are three manufacturers of paint in the USA. Just like cars we went through the laquer phase, the enamel phase, Imron, polyurethane, and now base/clear coat systems. Guess what? Base coat/clear uses laquer as the color coat, and poly as the clear. In the middle of all this is the EPA with their crock of crap VOC requirements. The paint store will tell you that laquer is no longer available. So explain Duponts laquer coat in their EPA compliant Base coat/ clear system? In the 70s enamel was the rage for paint jobs, then 2-part Imron came along, then the polys, each one was marketed as the new fangled system at ever increasing prices. I like both Imron and Polyurethanes, both flow well and provide a high gloss finish, and are very durable. Base coat/clear was a disaster but now they have finally figure it out. I have used plenty of enamel and with the hardner additives provides a finish that rivals any of the others and at one tenth of the price. I would certainly ask one of Dupont's engineers about this and ask him to put what ever claims he has in writing. I will bet you a dollar to a donut hole you will never get anything in writing. I went with Ameron paints after doing the due diligence piece. I don't think you can go wrong with the automotive formula of Imron if you are stuck on Dupont. I cannot speak to the new fangled (read unproven new formulas) that are available.
 
Bob,

Talk to Jason down there and if you buy stuff and if you like i'll drop it off for you. I go to Montreal from Glens Falls about once a month until spring and then through Ogdensburg. Either way a lot closer.

I have painted a lot of Imron but not the 3.5 HG. If you talk to the Dupont rep, they know the "hot set up" for each paint. Use the gun, fluid tip and needle they say and you will save yourself a lot of hastle. Likely you will not be using HVLP on the Imron, maybe on the primer. Any good hi build primer is ok but i think the Pratt and Lambert 10 mil primer is the best by far.

I always thought P & L (bought by Sherwin Williams but the industrial products keep the P & L name) "owned" the aviation market but i'm sure Imron and Awlgrip are used also.
See http://www.aopa.org/pilot/btn172/btn9412.html for info on one paint job.

Good luck...happy to be a gopher.

Ted
 
I've used both Awlgrip and Imron more Awlgrip only because It's more readily available and less expensive thru the suppliers I use. I don't see any signifigant differance between the two as far as longevity goes. The oldest job I still get to see ocasionaly is going on 16 years and looks good. The truth is that failures or short life are rarely the fault of the paint itself it's almost always preperation aplication and weather. You would think that with so many yards using Awlgrip if it was only lasting a few years they would all be out of bussiness by now?

Brian
 

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