Crusader 454 eng prob. Help

[firedreamer]

OK I have twin 1987 "350/454ci" crusaders. Serial #60292. While at the fuel dock the other day the stbd one died, I restarted it and it seemed to feel like it didn't have any power almost like no gas and then died again after a few sec. Got back to the slip on the other Eng and now it won't start.
First thought was fuel so I opened the main aluminum tank (the port eng continues to run fine on this tank) it has 1/4 tank of fresh and clear gas. I just finished a 260 mile trip about a month ago. I have checked and the vent line clean/clear and open. Took a hand bulb pump and get good fuel from the tank to the canister filter on the eng going through the selector switch and a bulkhead mounted filter. The filter was clean and clear but i replaced it anyway and it was replaced new before the 260 mi cruise here. Pulled the line off the carb and turned over the eng and have good flow whit good streams in the carb. So I don't think its fuel, not i turned to "spark" it does not seem to me that I'm getting spark from the plug wire or the coil to dist. with when i ground them out on the eng. I have the Mallory YL 670AV distributor with what were pretty old points. I changed the cap and rotor as well as the points and here's the odd thing. Still will not start and when I compare the voltage between the good eng and this one, with the keys turned on i get about 11.5 volts from the lead on the dist. going to the coil, and from the coil to the resistor in the pic (both sides of it) and then on down to the starter solenoid vers diff voltages on the good eng. Can anyone help or tell me what the issue could be before i have to call in a mechanic.

 

[Outrageous65]

Swap the coil from the running engine to start eliminating possible causes.

 

[MikeP]

"it does not seem to me that I'm getting spark from the plug wire or the coil to dist. with when i ground them out"

To be sure I understand....the engine was running OK and then suddenly quit, restarted briefly then quit again and would not restart. You THEN put in new points and changed the cap/rotor and it still wont start, right? IOW, the engine was running fine for 260+ miles and suddenly exhibited the behavior described. There was NO "maintenance" or work done on the engine between the trip and the problem. Is that correct?


You need to verify positively whether you do or do not have spark. I'm not sure from your post where you referenced "grounding" the secondary wire but try this specifically if you haven't:

Pull a spark plug and then reconnect the wire and lay the plug on the intake manifold/head area with the metal (hex part) of the plug laying on the manifold and the plug oriented so you can easily see the electrode/gap. Have someone turn on the ignition and crank (try to start) the engine. Observe the gap of the plug to see if there is a blue-white spark periodically jumping the gap. If there is, then you do not have an ignition system problem. If there is no spark or a yellow/red spark, there is an ignition system issue that needs to be sorted out.

If you have a healthy spark then it's probably a fuel delivery problem - note that it could be lack of fuel or too much fuel (flooding). Quadrajet carbs are known for flooding issues due to their design and also their non-floating floats! NOTE - there are other ignition related issues - like timing errors - that can cause the problem but it is unlikely the timing suddenly changed on its own.

Re your voltage readings - With a ballast resistor system (like yours), you should never see battery voltage at the coil under normal operating conditions. That's the purpose of the design - to prolong coil life. The coil will burn out fairly rapidly if operated at full system voltage. The resistor is bypassed when the starter is engaged to provide maximum spark voltage for starting but as soon as the engine starts and the key/switch is back in the "run" position, the resistor is in the circuit. So if you just turn the ignition on, or have the engine running normally, you should not have battery volts at the coil. With the ignition "on" and engine not running 9-11 volts at the coil is pretty common though it will vary from system to system. NOTE again that this is for systems WITH a ballast resistor.

Swapping coils, as noted, is a good troubleshooting method but I would do the spark plug test first because it's easier and if you see a good spark, it's not the coil. If you don't, it COULD be the coil but could be several other things - bad/broken connection, improper point gap, faulty secondary wiring, etc.

 

[MikeP]

Forgot to add...

You said you checked fuel flow to the carb. Did you check to see if fuel is actually IN the carb bowls? If you specifically checked this already, I apologize.

With ignition off, remove the spark arrestor/filter from the carb. If there is an automatic choke, you will have to hold the choke blade open so you can see into the carb. With the help of a flashlight, look down in the forward barrels (smaller ones). Operate the throttle quickly to wide open. You should see a a jet of fuel being squirted into each of the two barrels. If you do, then fuel is definitely getting to the carb. You can still have issues with the carb/fuel but that is one of the primary checks and the other stuff that can go wrong in the carb and cause starting problems doesn't usually happen suddenly.

 

[workingonadream]

use an in line spark tester and crank the engine over, if you have spark the tester will light up when cranking the motor over. if it does, then it is likely a fuel issue. how old was your fuel before your trip. if your float is getting stuck due to old bad fuel or due to that crap ethanol it will not allow fuel to the cylinders. I would try to see if you can get the engine to kick with carb cleaner if it kicks , you are on the right track. good luck.

 

[firedreamer]

Yes i have pretty good gas to the inside of the carb, i will swap coils and see what happens and go from there... hey does anyone happen to have the service / repair manual in a format that could be emailed? or at lease the ignition section? thanks for all ur ideas so far keep them coming

 

[Maynard Rupp]

This is simple. You either aren't getting fuel or spark. If fuel squirts into the carb when the throttle is pumped, it ain't fuel. If you pull a plug, hook the plug wire to it and ground the plug housing, you should see spark while cranking. You can swap any of these components side for side to find your problem. Yes, the distributors can be swapped also. My bet is the points are the problem. If the resistor is bad the engine will start and run until you stop holding the start button in "start". I won't have a point type distributor on a boat.. Too many corrosion problems. We have Prestolite distributors on our 454 Crusaders and they are trouble free.

There are a few other possibilities like fuel pump diaframs, but if the carb is squirting the engine should at least make funny noises.

 

[Boatsb]

Get a dwell meter on it an see whats happening. Then you will know where to look next

 

[workingonadream]

I just want to clarify you said you have fuel getting sprayed into the carb. are you sure you did not flood it trying to restart. did you pull a plug to see if they are wet. if you did and they are dry, it is likely a spark problem. what gap did you set on the points, if it is set too wide, you wont get a hot enough spark to fire the engine.if you have no spark at all I would then check to make sure you have power getting to the coil when the key is on, and the start eliminating things systematically from there.

 

[firedreamer]

Ok found the problem, I put in a "new" set of points and it turns out they had a little bit of corrosion on them i guess. After i found no spark at the plugs i took a little 200grit sandpaper to the point and just lightly hit them and "Wham" it started right up. timing was off about 6 degrees but now it starts and runs fine ! thanks everyone for all ur help and ideas ! ! ! got to love boating forums !

 

[MikeP]

Glad you found the problem. FWIW match books were the standard piece of kit for points repair on the side of the road back in the day - the thickness of the book was approximately correct for points gap setting and the abrasive for striking the matches could clean corrosion off the points.

As Maynard POINTed out (no pun intended) electronic is a better way...

But the one good thing about points is that nearly no tools are necessary to figure out/get them working.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Spend some money on a pair of pointless distributors. Mine are Prestolite and have performed flawlessly for 12 years.

 

[roundIII]

Summitt Racing has the marine Mallory's for under $300 each. Works great.

RoundIII