Blister Treatment

[richardoren]

Hi Guys,

I thought I had this thing figured. My 1963 Hatt has zero blisters nor to my knowledge any blister history. I know that is the lucky draw, and David Pascoe says that Hatteras should have taken out a patent on blistering - but isn't that for boats built from the 1980's onwards?

What is making me post here is that the owner of a 1972 Yachtfisherman I am looking at presented me with a recent bill for a full peeling and West system treatment of his 58 footer. The invoice mentioned that it was NOT warranteed work because the owner was in a hurry and had them proceed while the hull still had humidity...

Here is a post by a member of the 1510 forum, which shows several treatment options. I thought that Hatt hulls being solid fiberglass (to the waterline on more recent models) that osmosis wasn't a real problem needing rectification unless you disliked the cosmetics or wanted to reduce drag under power. This is what LCpl Retired had to say:

" Blisters There are many schools of thought on this subject, but it comes down to how long you want to keep the boat, and your personal preference...

1. Right Way: Remove all hardware and peel the bottom, and relaminate the whole thing. Cost: about 500.00 a foot. Do this if you are keeping the boat forever.

2. Pretty Right Way: Media Blast entire bottom, grind out any remaining blisters, dry bottom for several weeks or use a tented dryer, fill blisters, barrier coat and seal and paint it. Cost 8-12,000. Do this if you are keeping the boat a very long time, or if the bottom is very bad and you plan on selling it eventually.

3.Kinda Right Way: Media Blast entire bottom, grind and fill blisters, barrier coat and paint it.. Do this if your plans are unsure and the bottom isn't too bad. Cost 5-8,000.

4. Adequate Way: Do an Intusive Test on the bottom,Grind and Fill blisters and paint it. Do this when you are ready to sell it. Until then, paint it.

5. Paint it and Run it.

The reason that 2 if By Sea is right is that these boats RARELY EVER have a structural problem with blisters, especially the earlier ones. You are not even passing along a problem to the next owner, because as long as the bottom tests dry, the boat is really fine. ON AN OLD HATTERAS THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS A COSMETIC ISSUE. If it bothers you fix them...Will the boat get blisters in the same spots you fixed? probably not.....but will it get blisters RIGHT NEXT to the spot you fixed?..probably!!...so??...What you are doing is preventing yourself from being beat on on survey for a bad bottom. On a high speed vessel they can cause deterioration by the hydralic press created by smashing through the waves. Unlikely on these boats. If the bottom is bad(wet), the ONLY way to cure it is to peel it and relaminate it, and this is not something you want done by the lowest bidder!!!

Bottom Line: IF the bottom tests dry...blisters are something you worry about when you BUY it...and when you SELL it..........

later, Bill"

The problem I have with this is that the hull was still wet after 2 weeks of drying. Doesn't this mean that there's a more serious problem than the traditional surface blisters usually found on old Hatts? I don't mind things that need fixing. What I don't want is something which can't be fixed (reason for going Hatt all the way!).

Richard

 

[luckydave215]

And then there's the sensible way (unless it's really, really bad)

Step 1: Haul the boat.
Step 2: Clean the bottom.
Step 3: Paint the bottom.
Step 4: Launch the boat and enjoy it.


Our hulls are so thick, who cares about a few blisters?

 

[Nonchalant1]

And then there's the sensible way (unless it's really, really bad)

Step 1: Haul the boat.
Step 2: Clean the bottom.
Step 3: Paint the bottom.
Step 4: Launch the boat and enjoy it.


Our hulls are so thick, who cares about a few blisters?

Dave - That's the original choice 5.

Actually there is a choice 6........
Haul it for the winter and keep it in dry storage or heated dry storage. The blisters will disappear. Then it takes them longer than one Vermont season to come back.

However, I don't understand the comment that the hull is still wet after 2 weeks of drying? Do you mean wet to the touch or wet to one of those "moisture meters"? If it's the moisture meter, do you mean wet where the blisters are? I understand that sometimes the moisture meters are not always accurate. I would expect one to indicate moisture where the blisters are. Just dry it over the winter and I believe they'll be gone. Plus, you get to work on your boat in heated storage over the winter.

Doug Shuman

 

[Genesis]

Personally, I think you're out of your mind to fix blisters on a Hatt.

I've never seen anything but "boat pox" on a Hatt hull, and I've also never seen one that worried me.

Surveyors who try to use this as a reason to ding you (especially when they REALLY want to vacuum your wallet as a consequence) need to be hung from the yardarm and THEN keelhauled.

Its not even a cosmetic issue on a Hatt - can you see the bottom from above the water? So we're now concerned about whether a scuba diver can see it, and then, only when he's within 6" of the hull?

Give me a break.

BTW, a peel job is no guarantee of it not coming back, unless its done 100%, and it rarely is. If they don't get ALL of the skin-out mat off and replace it you'll just get more blisters - fewer, but they WILL come back. A peel job done wrong can also destroy the hull.

If its a Hatt, and has blisters below the waterline, paint it and splash it.

 

[Boss Lady]

Blisters are caused by the capillary action of water wicking along the fiberglass fibers this allows a constant water source to fuel the chemical reaction that creates a blister. If both sides of the hull are barrier coated you can eliminate or greatly reduce the formation of blisters. A very large number of boats (all brands) in our boatyard have the blister pox, it is related to they type of resin used in older boats and some new boats. You only see this on larger boats because the smaller ones are on trailers most of their life. This is a small problem and is mostly cosmetic. If you treat them when the appear they take just a few hours to grind out and repair. This is something you may have to do every few years, since they develop very slowly. It would take several years for one to even come close to making a hole through the hull, much less cause anything that would could jeopordize the soundness of the hull. My 1973 Hat hull has about 4-5 blisters that were 4" in diameter, the rest were 1-3" and maybe 1/4" deep. They take 20-30 minute each to grind out, then you need to wash the area several times to remove the acidic mixture that caused the blister, allow it to dry and reglass The washing and drying takes some time. The moisture meter crowd are full of crap. If there is an area that has air pockets and they are now full of water, yes it will take some time for it to dry out, but there is no way for properly resin infused fiberglass to hold a quantifieable amount of water. If you use a moisture meter designed for wood, the residual salts and "any" moisture, including that hanging in the air will allow electrical current to flow and give false readings on a fiberglass panel. This is why when these idiots claim that the hull is wet, and after several weeks of drying the meter reading doesn't change. This is an about as un-scientific as it gets. The meter is only as good as the person operating it. The moisture meter really measures electrical resistance and is designed to read accurately on most wood products with their inherent electrical properties based upon the organic materials nature makes them with, there is no real analysis going on by mis-using a moisture meter. The wood industry uses the "Oven Dry Method" for determining moisture content for kiln dried wood, the moisture meter is something used by amateur wood workers, and by extension, amateur boat repairmen. If I was looking at a hull with neglected blister pox, I would deduct the cost of proper repair from the purchase price, and would locate a repair facility that do the work or figure out if I have the time to do it myself. If you want to go all out, have the bottom peeled by a shop equiped with a "Gel Plane", it will take about 15 hours on a 50 bottom to completely cut the gel coat off using this handheld machine. It should cost about $20K to peel it, and reglass, fair, and epoxy coat it. But I have not seen a hull that would require this much work, except on some sailboats of very dubious quality.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I have never seen a Hatteras with a structural problem with blisters, either. I had mine done a few years back- sandblasted the bottom, dried it, filled and faired with VC Watertite, and then seven coats of Interprotect 2000/2001, or whatever they call it. Still holding up handily, so far. Boat is hauled every year from Nov-March.

The drying part of the process took about six months. Two weeks is not, I suggest, nearly long enough. Mine was helped along by the back that it was done in an area of Maryland which is always windy- it's like Kitty Hawk, NC- and that we had a dry, cold winter, which helped pull moisture from the hull. No bottom job will hang in there if it is applied to a wet hull.

Good articles on blistering and repair of same in last two issues of Passagemaker. Also, the West System books are good on this as well, and the literature you get with Interprotect, of course they tout their own stuff, but who doesn't? I think the current thinking is that vinylester is the best recoat of all, but epoxy has held up well for me so far.

 

[richardoren]

Thanks Guys for analyzing the situation with Hatt blistering. I had it sort of figured that way from reading earlier posts.

However, the boat I am looking at does NOT have blisters. One year ago it had an extensive blister treatment that sounds like it may have been superfluous... as well as maybe compromising the hulls integrity?

Here is approximately what the invoice says (roughtly translated into English by yours truly):

PEELING
Scraping of the Gelcoat layer
Installation of protections around the boat
Light dry sand blasting of the boat to break open the small hull delaminations and open the polyester fibers
Peeling 90 square meters
Sand blasting 90 square meters

WEST SYSTEM
Installation of a polyanne skirt around the boat at the waterline for the flow of rainwater;
Weekly fresh water rinsing of the hull during at least one and a half month to eliminate drainage of glycol, acid and salt;
After drying the hull and obtaining a residual humidity of less than 5%, application of a primer coat of West System epoxy;
Sanding of the first coat and application of a microlight filler to smooth the hull;
Sanding of the filler;
Application of 5 to 6 coats of West System epoxy charged in antiosmosis platelets to reach a thickness of approximately 600 microns;
Sanding and application of antifouling paint.
Total Cost: 10,286.27 Euros ($13,000)

What I'm wondering is whether this is a bullet proof hull now regarding blistering, or has it been unnecessarily peeled and now presents risks of water infiltration into a weakened hull structure?!?

Thanks for your opinion. I don't want a boat that has lost its hull integrity due to excessive cosmetic preoccupations. Apparently neither the yard nor the owner realized that blisters on a Hatteras are not the serious issue that they are on other boats due to its solid hull... I only hope they didn't kill a healthy patient by administering unnecessary medicine.

TIA

Richard

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Are you really stuck on THIS boat. I would probably keep looking unless there are other reasons that you keep coming back to this one. My boat had a rash when I bought her, but now it is almost gone since I keep her in heated storage over the winter.

I personally would rather buy a boat with an untouched hull than one that I did not inspect at the time of peeling, etc. You should look for a blistered boat and get a healthy reduction for it and then just run it. It's kind of like buying a boat with fresh rebuilds--you just don't know what really was done.

 

[Genesis]

Norseman did Gigabite some time (a few years) before I bought her. It was a complete waste of $15,000 - she still had minor "boat pox" when I bought her, and still did when I sold her.

I did exactly nothing for the blisters, nor would I have paid for the original peel job. It was IMHO a complete waste of money.

If the peel was done several years ago and nothing has surfaced since, its probably ok - but it still was likely a waste of money

 

[richardoren]

...I personally would rather buy a boat with an untouched hull than one that I did not inspect at the time of peeling, etc. You should look for a blistered boat and get a healthy reduction for it and then just run it. It's kind of like buying a boat with fresh rebuilds--you just don't know what really was done.

I see you understand why this invoice set off alarm bells. Maybe I've over-reacted, but he put the boat on the market right after the peeling was done. Did he want to pretty up the bride? Or was it because the peeling took its toll...?

 

[richardoren]

...If the peel was done several years ago and nothing has surfaced since, its probably ok - but it still was likely a waste of money

It was peeled in May of 2005, in May of 2006 only antifouling was redone (she spent the year in salt water) and a full superstructure Awlgrip was done last February.

Thanks for reassuring me - I imagine that a peeling won't really help, but wouldn't compromise the solidity of a solid fiberglass hull.

Cheers,

Richard

 

[jim rosenthal]

A good surveyor should be able to tell you the condition of the bottom of that boat NOW, which is what you want to know, it seems to me. I don't think they did the boat any harm with that treatment. Now, whether they did it any good or not is an open question, and should you pay more for it because they did it? I would say not. If the blister job was two or three years old and the bottom looked good, I would be more inclined to pay more for it, but not convinced.

It's kind of like what Karl said in another thread about "engines freshly majored" in a boat listing- watch out! What you really want is "engines majored 300 hrs ago and just surveyed and look great, here's the survey".

Of course, we all want what we can't have or find, don't we....

 

[SeaEric]

....Yes and we want it all for a super bargain price from an anal retentive owner in distress to sell, with no broker involved.

 

[bobk]

There are one or two excellent articles on the blistering process that were written by scientists who researched the phenomenon, not purveyors of services or chemicals. Try to locate them by googling. If you can't find them, let me know and I'll try to find the references. I think I have them saved some where, but not with me.

Bob

 

[jim rosenthal]

Of COURSE we want a broker involved!! we just don't want to pay for it, that's all.

 

[richardoren]

Brokers

Of COURSE we want a broker involved!! we just don't want to pay for it, that's all.

I've found brokers worth their weight in gold. And I'll pay for anything that has value. If they're smart, they'll do what it takes to bridge the gap between buyer and seller and make the deal work. If they're greedy, they'll make less money by jinxing sales looking for inflated prices to maintain their dream of AHAP (as high as possible) commissions.

If I find a boat I like through a broker who is working for the deal, and not against the buyer (or sometimes even against the seller's interest if he's truly hurting to sell), his commission will be earned if he mediates the deal effectively, and not sharing it with another broker will help motivate him to make it happen.

If the seller's broker isn't up to snuff, then I'll present my offer through my own buyer's broker. This way he is legally mandated to present to the seller my offer, even if the commission amount isn't attractive. If the deal happens it is despite him and not thanks to him, and he's lucky to get half of the commission on a discounted price for placing an ad and holding the seller's boat hostage for ransom.

So if you come across a cantankerous broker who is givng you a run around, remember that broker you once met who is a human being worth the shake of a stick, and give him your business. A check on deposit enables him to present your offers and ensures that the seller's broker will have considerably less power to block the situation.

And, of course, if you have a forum buddy who also happens to be a broker... what can I say?

Richard