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A real engine, a real generator, a real heater

  • Thread starter Thread starter krush
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Now I know why I hate flying......and I thought sitting over the wing was safer. Boy, was I wrong.

Your photos are fascinating. I remember the Normandie was powered by diesel-electric drive- big diesel-powered alternators running electric motors directly coupled to the prop shafts. Do you have any photos of systems like that?
 
Wow now that left a mark..

Yeah shit happens but flying still is safer then all other travel you can walk down the street and get run over which happen to a family friend. Don't have any that went in a plane though. Plus it hard to go to Hawaii and other places without flying takes to dam long.

So Krush you must be working on stuff older then you :)
You look good getting dirty ;)
 
Just one more.
 

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"Boiler is B&W 66MWe 4burner HFO. Good job! How'd you know?"

If it were a CE boiler the burners would be in the corners of the furnace. If it were a Riley boiler the water-wall with the burners would likely have had some slope to them. It could have been a Foster Wheeler, so I had a 50/50 chance it was a B&W. With only 4 burners it couldn't produce much more than 60MW. If it were opposed fired (4 more burners on the opposite wall) my guess would have been low by half, but all the B&Ws I have dealt with were only front-fired.

Not all CE boilers are corner fired. In fact, there are 4 VU-60 CE boilers on the island and they are wall fired burners...of course they are small 26MWe. I worked for Riley a few years ago. Don't tell anybody, but corner fired tangential boilers are better!

Regardless, good job.
 
Our FOUR 1,100,000 lbs/steam/hour units were tangiential burners as well. Those were also 1250F at 2200 psi on 345 Mw turbines. One was a tandem GE single shaft and the other was a cross compound Westinghouse HP/gen and IP/LP gen.
The older plant in Chicago had a CE cylcone unit with a C C Allis Chalmers 345 Mw turbine.... Know what a super critical boiler produces ? ws
 
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You didn't have 1250F...1050F is about the max around.

Once through super critical...very clean water!
 
Super critical is like 2X superheated steam... correct me if Im wrong, buta SC units' steam is when the temperature is greater than the pressure. 2200PSI and 2300F.
We had a plant at Powerton (Pekin Il) that was a SC unit, but never got to work there... ws

From RE.... er ah, wikipedia...

Supercritical steam generatorsSupercritical steam generators (also known as Benson boilers) are frequently used for the production of electric power. They operate at "supercritical pressure". In contrast to a "subcritical boiler", a supercritical steam generator operates at such a high pressure (over 3,200 psi/22.06 MPa or 220.6 bar) that actual boiling ceases to occur, and the boiler has no water - steam separation. There is no generation of steam bubbles within the water, because the pressure is above the "critical pressure" at which steam bubbles can form. It passes below the critical point as it does work in the high pressure turbine and enters the generator's condenser. This is more efficient, resulting in slightly less fuel use. The term "boiler" should not be used for a supercritical pressure steam generator, as no "boiling" actually occurs in this device.

[edit] History of supercritical steam generationContemporary supercritical steam generators are sometimes referred as Benson boilers. In 1922, Mark Benson was granted a patent for a boiler designed to convert water into steam at high pressure.

Safety was the main concern behind Benson’s concept. Earlier steam generators were designed for relatively low pressures of up to about 100 bar (10,000 kPa; 1,450 psi), corresponding to the state of the art in steam turbine development at the time. One of their distinguishing technical characteristics was the riveted water/steam separator drum. These drums were where the water filled tubes were terminated after having passed through the boiler furnace .

These header drums were intended to be partially filled with water and above the water there was a baffle filled space where the boiler's steam and water vapour collected. The entrained water droplets were collected by the baffles and returned to the water pan. The mostly dry steam was piped out of the drum as the separated steam output of the boiler. These drums were often the source of boiler explosions, usually with catastrophic consequences.

However, this drum could be completely eliminated if the evaporation separation process was avoided altogether. This would happen if water entered the boiler at a pressure above the critical pressure (3,206 psi); was heated to a temperature above the critical temperature (706 degrees F) and then expanded (through a simple nozzle) to dry steam at some lower subcritical pressure. This could be obtained at a throttle valve located downstream of the evaporator section of the boiler.
 
Supercritical refers to the operating pressure, not the temp. The new style is for ultra-supercritical plants. Steam pressure and temperature are separate properties. Temps have traditionally been limited to around 1000F because of the requirement to minimize long term hight temp creep deformation (google creep).

An excerpt from an article below shows the desire to go beyond 1,100F in temperature. The higher the pressure and temp the more efficient the cycle is (all that maths and thermodynamics stuff).

T/P92 is being heralded as a superior and lower-cost alternative to T/P91 for new power plants with pressures above 3,600 psi and temperatures above 1,100F—such as the supercritical and ultra-supercritical units proposed to be built in the U.S. over the next few years. The switch from T/P91 to T/P92 would represent the next step in an evolution.

Following the successful use of T/P91 in the international power industry in the '90s, engineers began looking for a new material capable of handling the even more severe steam conditions (T>1,100F, P>3,630 psig) of supercritical and ultra-supercritical units in Japan and Europe.

http://www.powermag.com/coal/438.html
 
DCMY: That post #23 photo with the cowl missing from the jet engine is horrifying!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too many years ago I was an Operations Manager for AT&T at a nuclear blast resistant underground telecommunications station just outside Attica, (upstate) NY...yes, not far from the famous Attica prison. The whole three story underground structure was mounted on springs to help resist nuclear blasts if the US was attacked...16" thick solid steel blast doors, motor operated, protected the underground entry.

We had a pair of Solar turbine generators for back up power and dc batteries filling half a room that were as tall as I, and 3 x 30,000 gallon tanks of diesel fuel for the turbine generators. I don't recall the specs, but the turbines and generators had to be 5ft x 5ft x 30ft of so. In the event of a power failure, the batteries ran the facility until a turbine got started and came online....maybe three minutes or so. Sounded just like a jet engine getting started from inside a plane.

We had to run back up power tests once a month during off peak hours, and since we did public tours some evenings, I combined the activities when we had a tour. We'd end the tour by shutting off commercial power, room would go to low level emergency lighting, one of the turbine engines would start cranking and start. At about 20,000 RPM operating RPM, a jet engine three stories underground, in a confined space.....well, people who got that tour remembered it for a long time.
 
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How can steam (which is heated water, right?) be dry? Please explain in simple terms, if possible.
 
Steam with a temperature greater than the pressure (220F and 210lbs) is considered saturated steam. Once the temperature is passed by the pressure (220F and 230lbs) it becomes superheated, and unsaturated (dry)... the supercritical temp pressure thing is when the steam reaches the critical non saturation stage where it becomes a true gaseous state. At that level, you get the most amount of work possible (as in a turbine) from the fuel and water.
Even the superheated stuff I worked on there were 12 inch pipes feeding the turbine that had 2 inch wall thickness of chrome steel, and flanges with 20, two inch studs. Strainers and check valves? Hah! These were as big as VWs! ws
 
How can steam (which is heated water, right?) be dry? Please explain in simple terms, if possible.

Steam coming out of your tea kettle is at saturation temperature and we would call that "wet steam". This is the temp where both water and steam can exist (shown along the line in the diagram below). "Dry steam" is not truly a scientific term, but it refers to steam being heated far beyond the saturation temp...it is also referred to as superheated steam. The term superheat and subcool is also used in refrigeration as it relates to property of current state.

Once all the water in your kettle boils away, if we captured some of that steam in the kettle and started heating it, it would become superheated and "dry".

Superheating steam is just the inverse of cooling a block of ice below the freezing temp (assume 32F). If we have a block of ice at 0F, it's "dry". It has to warm to 32F and will start melting which is the same as saturation temp for steam.

If water and steam are mixing in a vessel in a plant like in a deaerator, then one can know the temperature just by measuring the pressure and looking it up in a steam table.

h2ophase.gif
 
You always know how to simplify things! ws
 
sorry, missed your post bill!

Steam can be simple or steam can be complex...depends on how one wants to approach it! I can dust off the book if need be!
 

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