to diesel survey or not to diesel survey.

[spincycle]

Buying a 58' hatteras, should i spend the cash and get a diesel survey, independent from the vessel survey? any experience with this type of survey?
Detroit/allison has a full survey were they reomove the heads and inspect the rings, etc, $2,500.00 . A local diesel survey would just be a cold start, look for smoke and be on board while we run it out for a few hours.

peter

 

[MikeP]

The critical issue with that decision is how mechanical/comfortable you are with your ability to determine the condition of the engines. If you are experienced with engines, then IMHO it is unnecessary to pay someone else to tell you what you can determine on your own. However, if you are NOT comfortable with this, then the money you spend on an eng survey may buy you some peace of mind.

Whether it's REALISTIC peace of mind is another question!

Note, removing the heads does not give you ANY access to inspecting the rings; I'm surprised anyone would suggest that. The rings can be inspected, at least partially, by removing the airbox covers and rotating the engine as necessary until the piston rings on that cylinder are visible.

 

[Pascal]

i doubt they remove the heads on both engines for $2500 during a survey... probalby the port covers to inspect the rings, do a borescope to check the liners and maybe do a compression check which meants pulling the injectors adn then resetting everything.

there is an good post in the FAQ section about cold start symptoms.. check it out. there was a longish discussion on engine surveys a while back where some made valid argument that it wasn't absolutely necessary

 

[skrmetta90]

Detroit quoted me $3,000 just to remove and install just one head on an 8v71 recently, so i can't see that happening either. I had my detroits surveyed early this year. I had to survey the hull and engines in order to get insurance. If you plan on insuring, you may want to check and see if they require it. If they do, might as well do it before you make the purchase decision. Most local surveys are a little more intensive than simply a cold start. As pascal mentioned, the boroscope is fairly common. You can get oil samples, usually for an extra charge. Plus, giving a trained ear a couple of hours with your engines can yield some pretty useful results. Good luck either way.

 

[Boss Lady]

A sea trial will tell you the most about the engines.

A real survey is expensive to do if it involves a compression check. You better have a good mechanic that "I" trust if it were my boat, since you have to set the racks and injector heights after this and if you don't buy the boat, I want it to run the way it did before your mechanic touched it.

What are you going to do if the engines show more wear than you think they are supposed to have? My philosophy on engines is to discount them as if they need overhaul, unless I have really good information on how they have been run and maintained. (independently obtained from a reliable source, no this is not the broker either).

Look up remanufactured, overhauled, and repair and understand the differences. Very, very few people actually can bring an engine up to remanufactured standards, some can do a decent job on overhauls, most people are effecting a repair and call it an overhaul. There is a big difference in what is replaced or refurbished. Unless someone has installed reman engines with a warranty, I discount them. Water pumps, blowers and turbos are almost never replaced but are just reused. You can count on replacing them early. If you don't account for this on the front end, then you will eat it on the backend. A box full of reciepts dosen't prove a thing. They are easily forged. With the cost of overhauls being $30K-$60K per engine you can wind up spending a small fortune if you are not careful.

 

[krush]

In this market, just factor the price of an overhaul in the future into your offer.

There are just too many variables on pleasure boats and if you assume the worst you are putting yourself in a good position.

 

[bdewar]

I bought a 53C last Dec. with 1271s. I was planing to sell the engines and repower. I gota Detroit tec to survey the engines. It helped sell the engines and he found some critical items that needed attending to before we moved the boat two tecs were in the boat most of the day we did the sea trial. They removed the air box covers to look at the cylinder walls. It also gave us more data to negotiate with. Good luck.

 

[Canuck Dennis]

YES, do it, typical marine engine purchase survey will cover most critical items, leaks, hoses, engine operating temps and specified rpm's, and if two strokes, a check of the cylinder walls and liners to give estimate of hours remaining, if 4 strokes, running under loads can give feedbaqck if the mains are in reasonable or maybe " more investigation" needed opinion.
Secret,.... find the right surveyor.
D

 

[REBrueckner]

Peter,
it's a tough question with no precisely correct answer. Especially without more input from you....I agree with the above comments...even though they are somewhat contradictory. Are you going to live aboard at the dock, cruise a hundred hours annually, cruise a thousand hours annually????

What are you expecting from these engines, what were you told, what is documented, what maintenance records and oil analyses do you have, and what have you checked on the engines and documentation? What is it you wish to accomplish? A full survey guarantees little... a piston rod or crankshaft can break on the next run, but they do provide valuable feedback.

As an example, if you were told the engines were completely overhauled and have some records, one port inspection can reveal if the rings and liner are new or 20 years old. Also, a mechanic who knows what Detroits sound like can tell a lot from the sound, warm up and WOT run characteristics. Smoke during cruise RPM run: maybe injectors, maybe liner problem,maybe turbo failing.....maybe......

You can talk to the mechanic organization that supposedly did any recent work....get their input. Ask how meticulous the owner was. As a combination of the above posts, why not take several steps yourself to start:

(1) Talk to the owner and find out how he used the engines...cruise speed, RPM, hours per year. Does that match fuel receipts? Have the engines been sitting for a few years without use....BAD sign....
(2) Review all the available maintenance records, including oil analyses for engines and trannies, get a current oil analyses....engines and trannies and coolant, genny also. They are only about $30 each... Again, no guarantee, but good feedback.
(3) Stick your finger down in the radiator cap and feel the underside of the heat exchanger tank where oil and crud collects....clean or dirty....of check overflow tanks, if installed.
(4) Go on a sea trial yourself armed with an infrared heat gun...Bring along your most knowledgeable friend....or a trusted mechanic....record all temps salt water system components, fresh water coolant components, tranny case temp, each engine exhaust port...compare against each other and the other engine. And read all temp and pressure gauges at the helm.

After the above, make a judgement: Does what I have been told,what I have verified and seen myself seem ok? If so, likely you are ok. If you have doubts, then maybe a complete (expensive) survey is a good investment. And if what I described above sounds like gobbledegook, go for the survey...

Finally, have you already negotiated a low enough price that IF a complete survey revealed a problem, say worn rings and scored liners in one engine, would you be able to get a further price reduction? How long has the boat been on the market? It's SLOW now so a survey COULD more than pay for itself...or maybe not...

good luck.....it's a judgement and a personal call.....

 

[tomrealest]

I would get the survey. I've bought two different 8V71TIs and both times it was worth it to me. The second time it turned up that the engine needed an overhaul and it saved me $30k. Unless you are not going to crusie far or you have deep pockets.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Beware of sinking too much money into surveys. They can be helpful, but they do come at a price. This price may turn out to be money down the drain. If the seller is unwilling to reduce the purchase price because of items found during a survey, then you are stuck with only 2 options. 1) Buy it anyway and fix the items at your expense, or 2) walk away with X dollars less that you paid for the surveys. You can only afford to do the latter so many times.

 

[fissioneng]

For my recent purchase, I paid for an engine survey. We did not disassemble anything so it didn't cost that much. However, I have Cat 3208Ts. It was well worth it because the owner was not mechanical and couldn't communicate anything about the engines. I think it is rare to find an owner with detailed records. In my case, I did have a lot of yard work orders to look at. I think it is critical to find the right engine surveyor. As with anything else in the service business, there are top notch people, but you have to find them.

 

[MikeP]

A private communication with a fellow poster on this site has energized me into making a statement re engine surveys. I won't mention his name because I didn't tell ask him if it was ok to say "Me and x both believe..." so:

I've been trying to be mellow re engine surveys but here's my real opinion: They are a TOTAL waste of money.

I have never had an engine survey and would NEVER pay for an engine survey. I also would NEVER pay for a hull survey if I could figure out how to get insurance without one - they are both a waste of YOUR money.

re engines - Do the cold start test (posted on the site somewhere). Take the boat out on the sea trial and RUN THE HECK OUT OF IT for an hour. Observe the engines during all this. Note what you observe. You will know more than any engine survey guy can possibly tell you after that hour.

Hull surveys - do you really believe that a surveyor is going to pay more attention to the boat you are going to buy than YOU are? HE11 NO! Unfortunately, you are usuallyy stuck with this one whether you like it or not.

I'll step off this soapbox before I REALLY get wound up!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

First let me say that I am not the guy that MikeP is talking about. But, I have to agree 100% with his previous post. I was trying not to upset the majority here that feel that there is some benefit to a survey, but I think Mike has expressed how I really feel about it.

I will add, however, that if having a survey in your hand makes you "feel" better about your purchase, then maybe it is right for you. Hey, it's your money. Spend it however you see fit.

 

[Passages]

I agree with MikeP.

Bring a buddy, an IR thermometer, a non-contact RPM gage and a flashlight.

Start with the 30 second compression check:
http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1498

Then run the snot out it for an hour. Special attention to vibrations, smoke leaks, oil in exhaust, engine temp staying below 185F & WOT RPM. Run a back down test to chack the engine mounts. (fast idle forward, shift to N, then R quickly and watch to see if engines jump.)

If the above passes - you are good to go. If something fails, you then consider your options - walk away or hire mechanic to give repair estimate, and deduct from purchase price.

I paid $2100 for my engine survey and they missed things. I would have been more upset but they found $2100 of stuff which was deducted from purchase price.

 

[fissioneng]

I think we have 2 schools (obviously highly polarized) of thought on this:

1. The buyer is competent mechanically and comfortable (knows how to do it) with assessing engines while under way or has a good friend who is comfortable/competent with doing that. If you know a lot about Detroits, so much the better. Conclusion: no engine survey

2. The buyer may be competent mechanically (or not), but is not comfortable checking the engines while running and does not have a top notch Detroit-saavy friend to help them out. Conclusion: engine survey might be worth it if you can find the right person to do it (in lieu of the good friend above)

So, like everything else, one size does not fit all, IMO.

 

[Avenger]

I think the key point being missed here is that a professional engine surveyor should have errors and omissions insurance. Thus you are supposed to be protected if there is a major fault that goes undetected that later jumps up to bite you.

As Mike P and others say; I wouldn't get a survey done, but I am in the trade and know what I'm looking at (usually). For someone who is not that technically savvy or who is making a significant investment i.e. I can afford to rebuild a 3208 but a pair of 12V-71s would be way beyond my comfort zone, then the cost of a professional survey may be worth the expense. Just make sure your surveyor comes well recommended and specifically ask if they have E & O coverage.

Also I think a proessional survey may carry more weight with a seller (especially one who knows diddily about engines) during negotiations, than some prop-kicker saying this engine needs this or that.

 

[captddis]

I would never survey a boat I buy either as I repair boats and engines for a living. However you need a survey for insurance, Might as well do it from the start. While I know everone here is a expert negotiater, A report from a third party is easier to use on price negotiating. If you are not a mechanic how will you know what is good or bad?

 

[LENZ]

When I bought my 43 dc (last year), I had never owned a boat with diesels. Wasn't sure about running temps, oil pressure, idle Rpm's, WOT Rpm's etc. So I paid a certified diesel mechanic $90.00 an hour to go for a ride and check out the motors and give advise. I spent a total of $360.00 plus $100.00 for a oil analysis. Was is worth it? I thinks so, I found the generator had some anti freeze in the oil (very little) but i was able to knock down the price of the boat by $4000.00. and yes the same generator is still working great as of today! (had to change the oil but that was it). The oil analysis for the engines came back with, Evaluation/recommendation; "Normal wear for regular oil change"

That's my 2 cents

Lenz

 

[skrmetta90]

I definitely agree that there are two groups of boat owners/potential boat owners in this discussion. I'm trying my best to be technically savvy by learning as much as possible and trying to do everything myself. During the day, i wear the disguise of a CPA. Let me explain this from a different point of view:

If you wanted to invest $250K in a company's stock, would you look over the records and financials yourself or would you hire someone who knew what they were doing? You can paint an engine and clean up an engine room all day long. Hell, you can use spit and glue to temporarily cover major issues that a novice wouldn't catch. Don't believe me? One word: Enron! I agree with the guys who know what they're doing, but even a novice who's equipped with a well laid out procedure to evaluate an engine and/or electrical systems may feel a little uncomfortable relying on their own performance when investing the magnitude of money we're talking about. So to say there's no way in hell someone can see the purpose of an engine survey is just silly.