Illegal charters

[HahnR]

The Coast Guard has been sending out notices of terminating the operation of illegal charters particularly in the southeast Florida area, mainly Ft. Lauderdale and Miami areas. Some under 30 ft pleasurecraft, several poontoons, a 33 footer. All were terminated and cited, all for no COI, stability letter, no drug & alcohol program, & not having a properly credentialed captain. Number of passengers running from 7 to 14 on board. It appears charter operators are trying to "fudge" the OUPV under 6 passenger limit. Is this a new thing where everybody and their brother are wanting to be a charter boat operator or just the Coast Guard deciding to crack down on them?

They're not showing pictures, so I can't tell if they have a big "For Charter" sign on their boat, or if the coasties just know who to check

 

[rob71]

I have been doing sightseeing day charters for the past 10 yrs. out of Clearwater Fl.
Every year more guys are doing these type of trips with everything from CC boats to pontoons. Many will take over 6 passengers. Mostly they operate off internet without signs on their boats. One guy in my Marina with an old Ocean Alexander takes large groups and claims bareboat status because the boat is in his girlfriends name.
Makes it hard for legit licensed and insured CAPTIANS like myself. The single coast guard boat here can not check but a fraction of the local traffic.

 

[Freeebird]

There are definitely ways to circumvent the six pack rules with a bareboat charter, but it seems to me the only way the coasties could catch someone would be if they did in fact advertise. They most definitely aren't going to be randomly stopping vessels with more than six people onboard, just to see if they paid to be there and/or if the boat is being operated by a licensed captain. That is as long as there is no signage on the boat to the effect it's a pay per ride deal.

A sign on a boat in a marina would be a sure way to be found out, but I'm guessing they don't have the resources to stay on top of such things. I've read recent articles on this subject, and it would appear the penalties are high. Then again, I guess that comes down to how a particular judge will be feeling on a particular day. Sort of like dropping a teaspoon full of diesel which could carry a $10,000 (or whatever amount) penalty.

 

[Scarlett]

Same problems here in San Diego, we also are dealing with boat B & B situations that are illegal, bet you guys have those also. John

 

[Pascal]

It s about time they start cracking down. They caught some big fishes a few months ago including a 147 footer against whom a captain of the port order had been issued. They had to finally do something after a highly publicized death on a 90 footer with an unlicensed captain on video doing cocaine.

https://www.workboat.com/news/passe...teps-up-pressure-on-florida-illegal-charters/

Bareboat charters up to 12 (plus charterer) are legal but you have to follow the rules incl charterer supplies food fuel and drink, owner can not be on board, charterer can pick his crew etc. and most critically you need to have two contracts, one for the boat and one for the crew,paid separately This is the first thing the USCG asks for when boarding. I forgot you don’t have the contracts, you are automatically a standard charter and if you have more than 6 pax on an unisnpected vessels the fines kick in

I used to run bareboat charters before on a 70 footer and NEVER left the dock without the signed contacts. Now I run an 84 which is over 100GT so we can do do 12 pax charters without having to do bareboat

 

[racclarkson@gmail.com]

There are definitely ways to circumvent the six pack rules with a bareboat charter, but it seems to me the only way the coasties could catch someone would be if they did in fact advertise. They most definitely aren't going to be randomly stopping vessels with more than six people onboard, just to see if they paid to be there and/or if the boat is being operated by a licensed captain. That is as long as there is no signage on the boat to the effect it's a pay per ride deal.A sign on a boat in a marina would be a sure way to be found out, but I'm guessing they don't have the resources to stay on top of such things. I've read recent articles on this subject, and it would appear the penalties are high. Then again, I guess that comes down to how a particular judge will be feeling on a particular day. Sort of like dropping a teaspoon full of diesel which could carry a $10,000 (or whatever amount) penalty.

Most are caught around here by real captains turning them in.

 

[Pascal]

Part of the problem are the new apps like BoatSetters that have brought ride sharing tech to the boating world with very little regard to USCG regulations...

Another issue is that the Captain classes and USCG exams do not address baereboat charters even thought it is widely use. So when freshly licensed captains get out in the real world they are told by brokers that it s ok to run a bareboat with 12 but these guys don’t know the rules. Many times brokers would send guests to the boat without sending me valid contracts. Eventually I would have contracts ready for them to sign before we left the docks...

 

[HahnR]

It s about time they start cracking down. They caught some big fishes a few months ago including a 147 footer against whom a captain of the port order had been issued. They had to finally do something after a highly publicized death on a 90 footer with an unlicensed captain on video doing cocaine.

https://www.workboat.com/news/passe...teps-up-pressure-on-florida-illegal-charters/

Bareboat charters up to 12 (plus charterer) are legal but you have to follow the rules incl charterer supplies food fuel and drink, owner can not be on board, charterer can pick his crew etc. and most critically you need to have two contracts, one for the boat and one for the crew,paid separately This is the first thing the USCG asks for when boarding. I forgot you don’t have the contracts, you are automatically a standard charter and if you have more than 6 pax on an unisnpected vessels the fines kick in

I used to run bareboat charters before on a 70 footer and NEVER left the dock without the signed contacts. Now I run an 84 which is over 100GT so we can do do 12 pax charters without having to do bareboat

So with the over 100 GRT you can charter 12 passengers without being an inspected vessel?

I just completed a captains class a couple months ago & the instructor was very explicit on what was allowed & disallowed with a bareboat charter From all the information I gathered it didn't seem like the thing to do. To be legal you basically are handing over all control of the vessel to the charterer who then provides the captain and crew. Seems like just a way to get around the Inspected Vessel requirement. Then there's the whole insurance thing......

 

[Briankinley2004]

I don't see how the bare boat thing for over 6 is able to hold water if the captain is getting paid, even if he doesn't own the boat. I'm pretty sure, when I got my license, the study material (based on USCG regs) said if you are getting paid you must have the appropriate license for the charter you are taking out. So if you have an OUPV you can only take 6 passengers plus 2 crew max. No matter whose boat you are on. And even if you have a 200 ton license you can't take 7 passengers out on any boat for hire without the boat being inspected. I have a 100 ton license but can't take but 6 on my Hatteras because it is not inspected. Can't take but 6 on my buddies Hatteras that used to be a charter boat because its not inspected. Now if the captain and crew are not getting paid then it should be fine.

Also if you have an OUPV (6 PAX) you can't operate an inspected vessel even if it has just 6 people on board. Or at least that is my understanding.

 

[Pascal]

That s what I mean... lots of inaccurate information In well over 10 years of doing charters I have done a lot of research, confirmed it with maritime attorneys and been boarded by USCG charter enforcement while on a bareboat charter with 12pax on a foreign built 70 footer (under 100GT)

With only a OUPV, you can not carry more than 6 pax regardless of charter type

With a master, even just 50 GT, you can carry up to 12 plus the charterer on an UNINSPECTED vessel under bare boat charter as long as you are hired separately from the vessel and as long as you are not the owner. Plus a few other conditions including the charterer supplying food and fuel

If the uninspected vessel is over 100GT with a 200 Master you can carry up to 12 including the charterer on a standard crew included and provided charter contract

Here is a 38 page USCG document which details everything

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/DCO Documents/5p/5ps/NVIC/1994/NVIC 7-94 Full Version.pdf

 

[Pascal]

So with the over 100 GRT you can charter 12 passengers without being an inspected vessel?

I just completed a captains class a couple months ago & the instructor was very explicit on what was allowed & disallowed with a bareboat charter From all the information I gathered it didn't seem like the thing to do. To be legal you basically are handing over all control of the vessel to the charterer who then provides the captain and crew. Seems like just a way to get around the Inspected Vessel requirement. Then there's the whole insurance thing......

Yes as the owner you are handing over control to the charterer but while the charterer should be given the option to pick his captain and crew, the owner can recommend a crew. That is expressly legal based on the uscg document I linked above. In reality, nothing prevents an owner from not approving a charterer picked crew. And people using a broker to charter a 60,70,90,120 footer don’t care to pick their crew. They want to have a good time and will follow the broker recommendation for crew

Is it a work around to carry more than 6, yes. Is it legal? Absolutely according to the USCG

 

[Briankinley2004]

Sounds like I need to run my buddies boat and let him bare boat it and he can do mine the same way. Wonder how the Gulf of Mexico reef permit requirements apply to these situations? Since fishing is probably the only reason someone would rent a boat in my area the reef permits might come in to play. The vessel is "for hire" so I would think a reef permit would be needed. Anyone know about this aspect?

 

[Freeebird]

Seems to me there are a number of ways to circumvent many of these issues, not that I would advocate breaking the law or anything.

If I were going to run an illegal charter (as in not a bareboat charter) in my own boat, I would tell my passengers to simply not tell any boarding party that they were anything other than invited guests on a little pleasure cruise. I would think it would be next to impossible for authorities to argue with that, and short of having been advertising such a service and being ratted out, I can't see the question even being asked during a routine stop UNLESS I have a banner on my boat advertising tours.

If I'm delivering a boat, and the owner wants to bring along all his friends, I'm perfectly legal, even if I didn't have my 100T Master. That's another thing that confuses people in that they believe if the operator of the vessel is being paid to move it, the operator has to be licensed. Not true. Paying passengers is the key. If someone wants to hire me to run them and their 20+ drunken companions to a UT game on their boat, that's perfectly legal too. In that instance, I would tell them not to mention my being licensed if we were stopped as there is just no reason to. I'm just the friend driving the boat. I wonder how it would work for the operator/Captain from a legal standpoint if an owner lied about being paid by passengers posing as friends. I'm assuming the owner, not the Captain, would be on the hook with that one.

 

[racclarkson@gmail.com]

Seems to me there are a number of ways to circumvent many of these issues, not that I would advocate breaking the law or anything.

If I were going to run an illegal charter (as in not a bareboat charter) in my own boat, I would tell my passengers to simply not tell any boarding party that they were anything other than invited guests on a little pleasure cruise. I would think it would be next to impossible for authorities to argue with that, and short of having been advertising such a service and being ratted out, I can't see the question even being asked during a routine stop UNLESS I have a banner on my boat advertising tours.

If I'm delivering a boat, and the owner wants to bring along all his friends, I'm perfectly legal, even if I didn't have my 100T Master. That's another thing that confuses people in that they believe if the operator of the vessel is being paid to move it, the operator has to be licensed. Not true. Paying passengers is the key. If someone wants to hire me to run them and their 20+ drunken companions to a UT game on their boat, that's perfectly legal too. In that instance, I would tell them not to mention my being licensed if we were stopped as there is just no reason to. I'm just the friend driving the boat. I wonder how it would work for the operator/Captain from a legal standpoint if an owner lied about being paid by passengers posing as friends. I'm assuming the owner, not the Captain, would be on the hook with that one.

Whoa there, pardner! I think you might be elevating this thing way up to seriousville. Lying, willfully misleading, asking others to do likewise, etc. to law enforcement (especially) federal law enforcement could work out to be big time. Me not being Johnny Cochran and all, I think depending on your guests and/or drunken companions to tow the company line is probably an accident waiting to happen.

The legal charters know who the cheaters are, and the alligators will be crank'n them jungle drums for certain. At least around here the feds have their ears to the ground.

 

[Pascal]

If I can’t tell from 100 yards away that a boat is on charter, so can the coasties... it s how the crew and the guests interact... you can tell in 1 minute without even getting aboard

Check out the link I posted earlier. This is exactly what the dumbass owner told the guests to tell the boarding party. It never works. These guys are trained to ask the right question and the whole thing unravels in minutes.

And then in addition to the civil illegal charter fines, you have to deal with criminal charges like liying to a federal agent, obstructing Justice... and more.

 

[Freeebird]

I said, "if", and posted a disclaimer and everything!

 

[Freeebird]

If I can’t tell from 100 yards away that a boat is on charter, so can the coasties... it s how the crew and the guests interact... you can tell in 1 minute without even getting aboard

Check out the link I posted earlier. This is exactly what the dumbass owner told the guests to tell the boarding party. It never works. These guys are trained to ask the right question and the whole thing unravels in minutes.

And then in addition to the civil illegal charter fines, you have to deal with criminal charges like liying to a federal agent, obstructing Justice... and more.

I went back and read the link as I didn't realize it was covering more than just that death situation. These guys were asking for it and had already been warned. Yeah, 50 people on the deck of a boat MIGHT raise an eyebrow! LOL


Sounds like those guys were, as we way in my neck of the woods, eat up with the dumbass. I'm surprised the penalties and fines weren't more severe for a couple of those as that almost sets a benchmark/precedent for risk assessment.

 

[HahnR]

From our standpoint, if we're going to charter, I want to have all our ducks in a row legal wise and be properly insured. Not worth getting sued because somebody figured out a way to get hurt, even after you told them what to do & what not to do while on board. Don't need hefty fines from the Coast Guard either. Just doesn't seem worth the risk to me to try to circumvent the rules to put a few bucks in your pocket if it comes at a risk of losing what you've worked for your whole life.

Maybe these guys getting cited are Fly-by-nights that got a boat cheap, don't have proper insurance and round up their passengers hustling somewhere. Found it odd too that none were cited for not having the proper size, type, or number of PFD's, fire extinguishers, suppression systems, etc. That's why I wondered if the coasties were just cracking down on those fudging the 6 pack limit & not really giving them a real going over.

Randy, if you'd ever take a bunch of drunks out on our boat and try to convince the authorities you're just a buddy doing a buddy a favor, you'll have to learn how to pronounce the name of our boat. I'm sure it would be the first question they asked you, LOL

 

[Freeebird]

Randy, if you'd ever take a bunch of drunks out on our boat and try to convince the authorities you're just a buddy doing a buddy a favor, you'll have to learn how to pronounce the name of our boat. I'm sure it would be the first question they asked you, LOL

I'd just tell them my buddy named it when he was drunk, and that's why I'm driving the boat! LOL

 

[Pascal]

The Maritimo 50ish mentioned in the article was a fixture at the local party spot. Big crowds, loud music.. I knew it was a charter

The 100 something Golden Touch is kinda weird...that s an expensive boat and at first when i heard the story,I thought maybe the captain was using the boat without the owner knowing... but it turned out to be the owner running the illegal charters. Mind boggling.

Over the years we had a few charters show up with one or two extra guests. They always stayed on the dock despite the charterer saying... give them a uniform, we ll say they re crew... not worth it