Bio-Fuels, economy etc

[67hat34c]

Thought I would start new discussion regarding these issues and remove from the Trawler thread.

Read yesterday that the Bio Fuel investments are at a bust. Due to the price of corn, now well above 5/ bushel, they can no longer make a profit. Construction has halted on new ethanol plants etc.

I will guess that more farms will pop up and start to produce more corn and it will possibly push the price back down but who knows.

Also read that price of oil will continue to climb and stay high due to our economy going south, no improvement until our economy improves. Well how in the world will that ever happen. Part of the economy problem is the price of oil. Cost of everything going up and salaries staying flat so how can there be an improvement? One thought, extra export taxes. We are exporting a very high amount of goods now due to weak dollar, why not make up some of that with export tax? If exports slow a little then our supply will go up and our prices go down, Right?

We are exporting a huge amount of building materials to china, portland and steel and because of this the prices have not come dowe eventhough building over here has slowed to a crawl. This is but one example, food is also going out and our prices are rising for the same reason.

 

[Pascal]

Bio Fuels is a little misleading since there is more to bio fuel than ethanol.

yes, ethanol is a scam, nothign more. It's inefficient and results in higher price for food (and beer)

on the other hand, Bio Diesel is a viable solution. it has the same amount of energy per gallon than diesel therefore more than gas and can produced from a variety of sources from vegie oil to algae.

so let's not mix everything up.

 

[67hat34c]

after i hit enter, i noted the title needed to be changed, can a title be edited or just the content?

 

[Westfield 11]

On one level, bio-diesel is just an extreme form of recycling, getting the last bit of energy out of used oils, and should be encouraged. I am not familiar with other methods of production of biodiesel.

The whole idea of energy production competing with food production for the same raw materials is just stupid. Ethanol is just a political boondoggle. A sop to farmers who are tired of "farming the subsidy" and want to actually try growing something.

Part of our overall problem is that as a nation we have gone from exporting finished goods to exporting raw materials like a 3rd world country. Why ship logs from the PNW to Japan and China, why not ship plywood and furniture or other manufactured goods. Instead of shipping cars and washing machines we are sending out steel and iron, sure some folks have a job, but not as many as when the factories were humming. Back before the "Rust Belt" corroded.
As far as Alaskan oil goes I once read that it all goes to Japan and Asia for refining and sale, can this still be true? Was it ever true, or was this just a myth? I would think we should be shipping this south not west!

 

[Trojan]

The Alaska oil has always been shipped to Japan and ports elsewhere. Nothing stays here. It's also been said that its the biggest oil field in the world. The farmers are planting every field they can with corn. But most of our corn is exported to China and Russia. Along with the beans. Corn and beans I think are at an all time high. Corn and beans have never been subsidies that I know of. There is also a shortage of wheat and oats seeds, raising there price, because farmers are growing the money makers Corn & beans. You can't win.

BILL

 

[krush]

Got this excerpt from somewhere. I haven't verified the numbers though:

Ag As An Energy Resource

Meanwhile, despite the fact that rising corn prices are making ethanol increasingly un-economic, the U.S. is upping the ante on bio-fuels. The mantra from the USDA, which dreams of creating an energy-independent America, was that we must break the economy's addiction to oil. This explains the 60 ethanol plants currently under construction to go along with the 140 already in existence here. Indeed, last year's 6.5 billion gallons of ethanol produced in the U.S. is projected to reach 8 billion in 2008. And the goal of this government agency is to take 1.2 million traditional gas vehicles off the road next year while helping to increase the production of ethanol from cellulose, as well.

Worthy goals, perhaps, but of paramount importance at this conference were Robert Dinneen, President and C.E.O. of the Renewable Fuels Association and Dr. Roger Conway of the Office of the Chief Economist from the USDA. Their contention was that it takes only .7 gallons of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol.

Here there exists much debate. According to the International Monetary fund, for example, it takes .82 gallons of fossil fuel to create a gallon of ethanol--some yield!

Yet the story might be even worse. According to David Pimentel of Cornell, it takes 29%, more fossil fuel to create a gallon of ethanol than energy yielded from the resulting fuel, a net energy loss! Cellulose and wood biomass seem even less efficient, requiring 45% and 57% more fossil fuel energy than they yield, respectively!

Included in Dr. Pimentel's analysis are the costs associated with producing the crops including fertilization, irrigation, transportation and processing. Not included in his assessment are the costs for Federal and State subsidies or the costs associated with any resulting environmental pollution.

This professor and ecologist was quoted as saying, "The government spends more than $3 billion a year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net energy gain, is not a renewable energy source or an economical fuel." He has also stated that ethanol production leads to natural gas and oil imports and U.S. deficits. And these doubts don't come from someone who's biased against alternative fuels; Dr. Pimentel endorses the use of wind power and photovoltaic cells in lieu of ethanol fuel.

 

[MikeP]

Fits in with a report a few days ago on an electric car - I think it was a GM product but I can't recall. The fuel needed to produce the electricity required to charge the vehicle produces more pollution than a standard gasoline engine.

Does anyone research anything before coming up with these boondogles? If our elec was supplied by nuclear plants it might be worthwhile but otherwise, it's silly. Of course that's assuming that nuke pollution [waste] wouldn't be even worse environmentally.

 

[labrador]

Read The Energy Non Crisis by Leslie Williams. Do a google search and read it online. We have more oil at Gull Island Alaska than the ragheads have however can't touch it due to the EPA. They have drilled test wells and hit on every one however it's just outside the 100 sq mile lease area so the gov says we can't use it. 30x60 miles of low sulfer oil, bigger than Prudhoe bay, just waiting to gush out at 900 lbs pressure!!! I'm getting to be an angry American!!!!!!

 

[67hat34c]

good replies regarding exports.
Again why not tax the exported raw materials? Tax money can be re invested into our economy by rebuilding infrastructure, bridges, roads, nuke plants, research in alternative energy sources etc.

quit wasting billions on space exploration, face it it does no one any good, just the Oh Neat O factor. the technology developed for this activity has a trickle down effect to the consumer , but the technology can still be developed on projects that actualy benefit the public such as alternative energy research, trickle down will still be there.

 

[MikeP]

I've read that and although it's "interesting," I frankly don't believe it. There's too much government conspiracy stuff for me to buy it. I'm not saying that I don't believe there isn't plenty of oil around but saying that it's a government plot to control the American people is ludicrous. The "government," is made up of many THOUSANDS of people. The idea that they could actually create, let alone manage and restrict information on such a large and wide-reaching conspiracy, is (IMHO) beyond belief. The fact that the "government" is constantly changing as people change offices/jobs/retire/hire-on, etc, makes it even more difficult to support.

Sure, a small group within the "government" could conspire to do something but, like Watergate, it will only last as long as it takes someone to start talking or asking questions. And that's not long.

 

[labrador]

Well maybe so however we also know there is oil in anwr but the gov won't let us get that!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Westfield 11]

Yes there is oil in ANWR, but since it's all going to be sent to China, why bother to tap into it now? Let's wait a few decades until we are really desperate, consider it an Oil Reserve as well as a Wildlife Reserve. And let's keep it for America!!

It's one thing to compare the production cost of one gallon of ethanol to one gallon of gasoline, but you have to remember that ethanol has a lot less energy that gasoline and thus mpg is not as good. that makes it an even worse deal.

The good thing about an electric car is that the pollution is at a central location: the generating plant. It is a lot easier/cheaper to scrub one giant location than 1000's small plants(cars), and to monitor. Another plus is that most electric cars will be plugged in at home after work when power plants have unused capacity. Using existing generating stations more efficiently can't hurt. Too bad there is no way to store electricity in the amounts needed, that would make solar and wind more attractive too.

 

[thoward]

I was surprised to find where we import the vast majority of our oil from. Right here in the Americas!

The top sources of US crude oil imports for December were Canada (1.780 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.675 million barrels per day), Venezuela (1.246 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.234 million barrels per day), and Nigeria (1.210 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Angola (0.439 million barrels per day), Iraq (0.378 million barrels per day), Algeria (0.348 million barrels per day), Ecuador (0.195 million barrels per day), and Brazil (0.171 million barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 9.818 million barrels per day in December, which is a decrease of 0.160 million barrels per day from November 2007.

Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in November, exporting 2.326 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (2.431 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Saudi Arabia with 1.686 million barrels per day

 

[Cef]

Look at the last March addition of Time magazine. It discusses growing Algae in New Mexico. They are up to 100,000 gallons of oil per acre from the Algae on the research farm. You can make both Bio-Diesel (BD) and Ethanol from the Algae. For every gallon you can get one gallon of BD or 1.34 gallon of ethanol.

In the article they show that if 2/3rd of New Mexico's available land was used strictly for growing Algae and process plants were put up. They could supply all of the transportation needs for the entire U.S. So instead of using 2/3rds of New Mexico just use the waste water treatment plants that are in most of our cities and towns. In Michigan, Michigan State University has just begun a joint project to use the waste water in Lansing Michigan. They will be producing over a million gallons of BD or 1.34 million gallons of ethanol.

With waste oil you can make BD today at less then .80 cents a gallon. That includes the electricity and current price of Methanol and lye. This is for the home brewers. On a large production scale and if the process plants were placed along side of or near hydro power and they used ethanol from the same plants. It could be made for less than .50 cents a gallon. Now add all of the taxes and you are still under $1.50.

Ethanol is not done because it can be used to make the BD. Currently you need 22% of Methanol to create the BD. Using Ethanol that is dry you need a little more. So, in a few years we could easily be free of any dependence on even our own oil. Now to get the infrastructure going will be another whole process and a lot of money that needs to be made from BD to compensate both stock holders and others that make a lot of money from oil today.

I think one day BD will be the true Marine fuel. The fish can eat it if it gets spilled. There are still some things such as Gel point (still need to blend it with Diesel during the winter) and storage (vitamin e is now working for storage), that have to be worked out. Yet, even with that it can be used on a regular basis in all southern states today, or places that stay above 45F. The engine manufactures are coming around too. VW Marine just went to 100% BD approved. Cummings is at 20% approved and shooting for 100%. John Deere is going for 100% and working on small processing plants for farmers. Duramax just went to a percentage along with Ford Powerstroke.

Now the old DD's you can just burn pure clean veggie oil that is preheated.


Of course we could all buy one of them new German Subs and run on Fuel Cells. That is another whole subject.


Just some thoughts,
Cef

 

[spartonboat1]

Got this excerpt from somewhere. I haven't verified the numbers though:

Re "...fossil fuel ...". This term is a discredited misnomer that dates from the 1700's. The Russians and many others have drilled very deep wells (max 8 miles so far) that struck oil- see off Brazil last summer, 3.5miles down, 8.5B bbl's hit. It is beginning to appear that hydrocarbons are being produced from within the earth and are renewable, as long as we are willing to utilize it. It (HC's) are pushed to the surface via fractures. The Middle East is known to sit on massive fractures.

 

[spartonboat1]

Read The Energy Non Crisis by Leslie Williams. Do a google search and read it online. We have more oil at Gull Island Alaska than the ragheads have however can't touch it due to the EPA. They have drilled test wells and hit on every one however it's just outside the 100 sq mile lease area so the gov says we can't use it. 30x60 miles of low sulfer oil, bigger than Prudhoe bay, just waiting to gush out at 900 lbs pressure!!! I'm getting to be an angry American!!!!!!

In general, my very limited research of known oil reserves indicates that there has been siginificant growth in reserves over the past 2 years. There may be as much a 2,000 years of HC reserves at current consumption rates. The current price of oil is completely non-aligned with supply. Please see EPA note above...known physical reserves vs. allowable by government fiat produceable reserves.

At some point, you would think that the high fuel prices would cause significant political pressure to allow us (the USA) to utilize our own resources. I will be curious to see when, if ever, that happens.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Here's a link to an excellent column on the very subject by Dr. Walter Williams of George Mason University:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/03/12/big_corn_and_ethanol_hoax

 

[MikeP]

Well, as Winston Churchill said about the truth and ethanol,

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."



Ok, maybe he didn't really say that about ethanol but nationally we do seem to be ignoring the truth, picking up and hurrying off...

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I really like that Walter E. Williams. I can just imagine how much fun it would have been to have him as an economics professor.

 

[mopester]

CEF,
you sound like you know a little about bio-d. it used to be about .80 cents now its up to about 2.00 for us home growers. i just decided to start purchasing the equipment to start making my own!! maybe after i recycle the ingrediants (lye,methanol) a couple of times the price will go down? i am also trying to figure out how to get rid of the glycerine. If you have any good info that will help send me a pm or email.

As for the rest of the bs. how do they get america to believe it is carbon from dead dinosoars ???? there werent that many t-rexs running around!!!
I kind of believe some of the cover up stuff. and the alaskan reserve that we cant tap into. the core stuff fits this theory that it is producing an unknown supply. i always tend to end up back at the last few presidents etc. who if you do the research are all in the oil industry???? humm. i dont neccisarily believe the bs but it makes me scratch my head and say whos really benifitting from the new and good alternative competitions being put down right away (bio-d and ethanol. ethanol being a deliberate flop) and who is really getting rich from the oil prices???

it doesnt matter anyway. the miyan calender ends in december 2012 due to planet x causing the earth to have a polar shift (talked about by einstien) turning us into fossil fuel!!
do a search on utube for planet x. HAHAHA more conspiracy bs