AMF vs Genmar- Overall quality of build

[SKYCHENEY]

I just pulled the flybridge door off of a 1988 60MY so I can rebuild it. I was shocked to see that it was made by simply laminating three pieces of 3/8" plywood together. They painted the outside of it with Imron and put some nice afromosia veneer on the inside, but the edges were exposed and the bottom of the door just sucked up water and disintegrated.

This got me thinking. My same door on my 1985 AMF boat was constructed of solid teak on all four sides with only a small piece of plywood in the center. This door has held up well while the Genmar door is now junk.

So then I started looking for other differences. I noticed that the 1988 boat had no trim on any of the cabinet doors or drawers. This may have "updated" the look, but it was also much cheaper to produce. The 1988 boat also has the grey plastic water lines instead of copper. And it has aluminum pilot house doors instead of teak. The aluminum doors may stay nice and straight with no chance of warping, but they do corrode and replacing the wheels and hardware is not as easy as on the old teak doors.

I'm sure you guys will come up with more, but I can now see when things fundamentally changed at Hatteras. The bean counters seem to have started to get their way around this time. I know, we can come up with other examples from other times in their history, but I think this was the real beginning of the end for the superb quality years.

My dad had a 1975 and a good friend has a 1978. Both of those boats are also AMF and the only real differences I see between those and my 1985 are the cored hull side above the waterline in the 1985. Other than that, almost all of the hardware and build looks the same.

From early on, it seemed that improvements to quality were progressing throughout the history of Hatteras. The wiring improved with AMF with better switching gear and nice neat runs that were all numbered. (one note on numbering: The 70's boats had nice stick-on numbers while my 1985 has stick on labels but the numbers were actually written with pen that is now faded and difficult to read).

Other thoughts?

 

[captddis]

Things definately went down with Jacobs/Genmar. The Make ready guys complained about the make ready times cut in half. Plus other obvious things.

 

[jim rosenthal]

A pet peeve of mine- Irv the Liquidator Jacobs, CEO of Genmar. The world's best at taking a decent boat company and turning it into a producer of garbage. The best thing that ever happened to Hatteras was getting out of Genmar, IMHO. I think he worsened the build quality of every hull built under his stewardship of any boat company.

I once wrote a letter to "Soundings" in which I described Mr. Jacobs as a tinhorn captain of industry, or something equally disdainful. I half expected to get an angry letter or call from him, but no. I was kind of disappointed, to tell you the truth.

 

[Boatsb]

A pet peeve of mine- Irv the Liquidator Jacobs, CEO of Genmar. The world's best at taking a decent boat company and turning it into a producer of garbage. The best thing that ever happened to Hatteras was getting out of Genmar, IMHO. I think he worsened the build quality of every hull built under his stewardship of any boat company.

I once wrote a letter to "Soundings" in which I described Mr. Jacobs as a tinhorn captain of industry, or something equally disdainful. I half expected to get an angry letter or call from him, but no. I was kind of disappointed, to tell you the truth.

Lets say Irv was not a positive influence. Besides that though the market changed and people went for lower quality overall. Look at all the other high end competitors to Hatteras like Bertram, Egg harbor and viking. They all made changes to stay afloat or they went under. The days of great workmanship are gone as we now live in a society that looks at price over quality. A few "custom" builders like Burger survived by doing work for the very wealthy but most of the high end production boats suffered in quality.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Absolutely. Even the best production boats suffered. This is another reason why, if you want a lot of power in a boat, you are arguably better off putting modern engines into an older more solid hull. While you might not go quite as fast, you'll spend a lot less, and you'll have a tougher, more seaworthy boat. Of course, you'll also own it until you pass away, since they can't be resold any more. But boats are for boating, not speculation.

 

[tom5518]

Interesting observations. I remember talking with a surveyor back in the summer of 1987 about this very subject. He had just surveyed a new 54 MY for a buyer and he told me the exact same thing. He said that Hatteras was not building the same boat they were a few years prior. He said they were still a quality boat, but Hatteras was using cheaper components and they were good about saving the money where it wasn't very noticeable unless you went looking for it. I never noticed Hatteras started using aluminum pilothouse doors. That is kind of a let-down. It's always been a treat to grab that Hatteras handle and open and close those heavy teak pilothouse doors. I can't imagine getting the same excitement from an aluminum one. Hey, I never said I have lived an exciting life...

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Those changes must have taken place from 1986 to 1987. I looked at a repossesed 1987 40' Hatteras MY. We own a 1986 convertable. These two boats share the same hull and deckhouse etc. I immedietly noticed that the cabinet doors in the galley had none of our teak trtim and did not have the teak trimmed holes to access the latch. This boat had those awful, hard to open plastic friction latches. Both boats had the exact same galley except for those cheap looking doors.

 

[sandspur1966]

This is a interesting thread. I wonder if we could, as a part of this site, do a timeline of Hatteras Yachts that graphs the quality of manufacture.

Perhaps it could just be an x-y axis graph that plots data points on quality along an axis that identifies ownership changes at Hatteras.

Those data points could be:

1) Hull construction quality
2) Interior & Cabintery quality
3) Fit & Finish (doors, trim, windows quality of chrome components etc.)
4) Wiring and electric service
5) Ships systems (AC, pumps, Fresh and blackwaters systems etc.)

I'm sure there are more but I think an overall, data driven representation of the quality of Hatteras Yachts over the years would be intersting and informative as well as really usefull to the market in our old girls.

I'd imagine it is a sensitive issue but perhaps we could get some former Hatteras folks to weigh in with some personal experience.

SB

 

[FLAHAT]

Hatteras Corp. Ownership History - I put this together from many sources so please feel free to
correct if something is not exactly right.

1960 - Willis Slain starts Hatters

1965 - Nov. 7, 1965 Willis Slain dies. David R. Parker Jr. takes over as CEO.

1968 - Merger with North American Rockwell Corporation

1972 - North American Rockwell gets out. Sold to AMF

1978 - Jacobs acquired the first component of Genmar in 1978, when he bought a 25 percent controlling stake in Arctic Enterprises, Inc., a Minnesota snowmobile company that also made Larson and Lund boats.

1981 - In 1981 Jacobs sold the snowmobile business, built a profitable company around the boating divisions, and renamed the company Minstar.

1984 - Irwin Jacobs buys AMF, which in addition to Head Sports, Tyrolia, and Mares owned the Hatteras yacht business. Jacobs sells off everything except Hatteras.

1985 - Minstar manufactures Larson, Lund, Wellcraft, and Hatteras boats. Revenues for the four brands reached $242.6 million in 1985.

1985 - June of 1985, New York-based AMF Inc. was acquired for $563.8 million. It was the object of a hostile takeover bid from corporate raider Irwin L. Jacob's Minstar, Inc.

1986 - In mid-1986 the four boat manufacturers were consolidated and spun off as a new company, Genmar Industries Inc., 82 percent of which was still owned by Minstar.

1988 - The high-end Hatteras boats were one of the most profitable divisions of Genmar's operations. Revenues rose yearly, reaching a peak of $518.2 million in 1988.

2001 - October 24, 2001 Genmar sells Hatteras Yachts Inc. to Brunswick for $80 million.

 

[Walter P]

Interesting thread....

Many years ago I bought an almost new 1973 (I bought it from a dealer who used it personally) 43 DC. I sold it and decided to buy a Hatteras convertible, but soon realized the error of my ways -- we didn't like giving up the enclosed aft deck and the large master stateroom. Now we did what most reasonable folks (IMO) do and sold the convertible after less than a year of ownership and bought a used 1980 DC which had the centerline queen bed in the master and TI engines as well as a dinette. Some years later, we sold the 1980 43 and bought a 1982 Series I MY, which is still our present boat.

Where I'm going with this is that I feel that I have a fair amount of experience with Hatteras boats at this point having owned four of them for more than three decades. Well I must say that the first 43 was substantially heavier than the 1980 model, but the details of construction were at least equal to the earlier 1973. I thought the electric systems as an example were done better on the 80 model among other things. The substantial loss of weight however concerned me as I was afraid that the newer model was not as robust as the older one. I checked with Hatteras on a trip to High Point and was told that they had learned quite a bit over the years and that they were able to reduce the layup schedule (amount of glass, resin etc) somewhat and still maintain an acceptable amount of strength. They were probably correct (I won't try to second guess their engineers) but I couldn't help but wonder every time I was caught in some nasty conditions in the Atlantic Ocean if it would hold up as required. After all the reduced layup coincidently happed shortly after the price of oil spiked after the second Arab oil embargo of 1979. It did hold up and then some including taking green water over the complete trunk cabin and actually smashing out one of the windshields because of my personal stupidity in going out in questionable conditions. We were subjected to winds in excess of 50 mph and hugh seas. Well other than the raw terror of being out there, we survived and I have sworn that I would never trust any other boat but a Hatteras. I also watch weather forcasts more closely.

My 1982 48 has been the source of many disappointments such as most recently, when we had the forward deck peeled back to replace the rotted core, we were very displeased with the scanty thickness of the bottom layer of glass under the core. I have always felt that a cored deck should have the design features of an I beam in that both top and bottom should be close to equal in strength, but then again as I said earlier, I won't second guess the engineers. Overall, I think that the boats built during the AMF period were very well built with some concessions on details due to the input of the bean counters. I also think that if Willis Slane would have lived for another 30 years all of our boats would have been even better than they are.

Walt

 

[jim rosenthal]

A very thorough perspective and one which most of us (if not all of us) will be unable to equal. I am still on my first Hatteras, at twenty years with her. Her design and build are not without fault, but she is holding up quite well at nearly forty. Mind you, there have been updates.

Some of the things that modern rebuilders of Hatteras yachts do are valuable as criticisms of the original designs; other things they do are just efforts to make the boats more current and saleable in the modern era. For example, some of the larger convertibles have been fitted with mezzanine decks- while these are nice, it is hard to argue that the original lack of a mezzanine deck was a flaw in the old design. Modern preferences just favor them.
But better interior layouts, simpler electrical systems, better windows, etc, are improvements on original. And it's worth mentioning that if the originals hadn't been as good as they were, they wouldn't be around to be improved upon in the first place.

 

[thoward]

some of the larger convertibles have been fitted with mezzanine decks- while these are nice, it is hard to argue that the original lack of a mezzanine deck was a flaw in the old design. Modern preferences just favor them.

I am not a fan of the mezzanine decks from a fishing standpoint. That said, both our 60C and the 52C had cockpit layouts that leave a lot to be desired. It seems the designers had little fishing experience.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Here is a Genmar flybridge door after 24 years.

Made of plywood and rotted away.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Here is how is should have been built and how it was built during the AMF years.

This was on a 60MY 1988. We are building the door exactly how it is on my 1985 53ED. That door is solid teak and shows no signs of rot.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Mounted the door on the hinges today.

 

[Canuck Dennis]

Not to divert from the Hatteras issues, but, my 70 ft Stephens in Vancouver..1974 era..the interior woodwork is a mixture of walnut (aft) and ash ( fwd.) all solid, not veneer, amazing to see a carpenter come in and work on a cabinet or door and the look on his face is priceless, solid walnut is unheard of today, in fact, there are thefts of walnut trees that take place.
SO, today it's all fix quick, build quick, dispose of and start again, gives us older folks a great feeling of pride when we look at our purchases that have held up over the years and with care and attention these older quality yachts will outlast many even made today. even more than than that, they can survive real sea conditions..

 

[rsmith]

Excellent looking job Sky!!!! Remember the late 80's was the S&L debacle and almost every major boat mfg went belly up except Hatt. Even Bertram went into bankruptcy. I wouldnt be supprised if Hatt cut some corners to stay alive. I had a friend repoing boats and the prices were not quite as depressed as today but pretty close. I came close to buying a 80' monterey called the Renegade he repoed from an insurance co in texas. I fished on the boat when it was new. It was super fast, 55mph on the radar gun (no GPS in those days) but something like 300 GPH. Like a lot of "real deals" out there today you have to say to yourself "do I realy need this big moose?" A pro golfer friend of mine bought it and ripped out the MTU's that never ran right and put 16v92's in it renamed it Sea Bear. He eventuly sold it back to my friend who by then started ACY. The boat is now named Patriot and last I saw it had 2000 series in it. Point is like now a lot of guys are drooling over bigger boats that had big pricetags a few years ago. But when is a deal realy a deal?

 

[jim rosenthal]

Exactly. It's only a deal when it does what you need it to do at a price you can afford. It isn't a deal if it eats you out of house and home or if it doesn't do what you need/want.

Mind you, there are some folks so rich that they don't care if it's a deal or not. I don't think a lot of them are hanging out here, though. The one thing that you can say about the people on this forum is that they don't throw their money away- even when they buy boats.

 

[spartonboat1]

Interesting thread....

Many years ago I bought an almost new 1973 (I bought it from a dealer who used it personally) 43 DC. I sold it and decided to buy a Hatteras convertible, but soon realized the error of my ways -- we didn't like giving up the enclosed aft deck and the large master stateroom. Now we did what most reasonable folks (IMO) do and sold the convertible after less than a year of ownership and bought a used 1980 DC which had the centerline queen bed in the master and TI engines as well as a dinette. Some years later, we sold the 1980 43 and bought a 1982 Series I MY, which is still our present boat.

Well I must say that the first 43 was substantially heavier than the 1980 model, but the details of construction were at least equal to the earlier 1973. ...The substantial loss of weight however concerned me as I was afraid that the newer model was not as robust as the older one. I checked with Hatteras on a trip to High Point and was told that they had learned quite a bit over the years and that they were able to reduce the layup schedule (amount of glass, resin etc) somewhat and still maintain an acceptable amount of strength. They were probably correct (I won't try to second guess their engineers) but I couldn't help but wonder every time I was caught in some nasty conditions in the Atlantic Ocean if it would hold up as required. After all the reduced layup coincidently happed shortly after the price of oil spiked after the second Arab oil embargo of 1979. It did hold up and then some including taking green water over the complete trunk cabin and actually smashing out one of the windshields because of my personal stupidity in going out in questionable conditions. We were subjected to winds in excess of 50 mph and hugh seas. Well other than the raw terror of being out there, we survived and I have sworn that I would never trust any other boat but a Hatteras. I also watch weather forcasts more closely.

...
Walt

Thanks for the remarks on the 43'DC and her advantages and solidity of build. I bought '72 43'DCFB in 1997, which was a project boat, in ways I was not aware of, but the very solid construction allowed me to catch up on repairs; plus one engine had been majored thankfully.

On being in bad seas, I did stupidly go out in high winds and seas (25kts and 5-7'), which in 20 mins turned into 55kt winds (verified on official gvmt meter) and 15'-18' following seas (who knows ht, but the entire hull rode on the wave face with room to spare). My naval book says after 35kts, wave height varies between 14-20' and the fetch (dist between waves varies). I didn't bury the bow, but l did get layed over so the stbd gunnel/rail was level with the waves and the port screw was out of the water. I was hard over stbd at full cruise power, just to maintain a straight heading; no doubt would have broached otherwise, and that is scary. I have since learned that the main issue on that age of boat, which has happened to others in big seas, is to burst one of the hoses on the steering system hydraulics, due to the heavy steering and loads on the rudders. Loss of steerage way then, could (would?) have life threatening. I have replaced all fuel and lube lines, so the above hoses are next.

The old 43's are pokey, but we ride nicely, even in 3-5 head seas, so speed is not a great concern in those. Thanks for you above insights, as it removes the desire to trade out or up.

 

[Canuck Dennis]

Such exaggeration of sea state I have never seen with boats surviving...to run at cruise speed in a following "big" sea is suicide..any prudent mariner knows, SLOW down, let the sea pass under the transom,or broach..most pleasure craft under 55 ft will not survive sea conditions of 15 ft plus unless hove to with a drogue, any one who says otherwise is exaggerating.